A1 Whitakers Asbestos Removal Co., Residential Consulting, Baltimore, MD

for more than 20 times the a1 Whitaker’ s asbestos removal company has been plying asbestos removal and construction consulting to Baltimore and the surrounding area we know the ins and outs of service industries like no other which is why top-level managers use us to launch their projects and keep them under budget and on time our learning makes all the difference between a successful project and a costly one planned your consultation today a1 Whitaker’ s asbestos removal company call us or visit us online now.

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Windermere Apartments Declared Uninhabitable, Tests Find Asbestos

HE WAS ORIGINALLY FROM PENNSYLVANIA. HE WAS IN AFGHANISTAN FIGHTING TERRORISM. AN UPDATE ON THE DEADLY FIRE THAT DAMAGED A SENIOR FACILITY IN LITTLETON. IT — TODAY THE CITY DEEMED THAT FACILITY UNINHABITABLE AND RESIDENTS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO RETURN AND THE RESIDENTS HAVE BEEN DISPLACED SINCE THAT FIRE. MANAGEMENT COMPANY SAYS ALL RESIDENTS WILL BE GIVEN BACK NOVEMBER’S RENT PLUS $500 AND THE CITY SAYS THEY’LL ASSIST THOSE WHO ARE NOT ABLE TO RETURN ..

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Asbestos

asbestos Asbestos is a fibrous mineral, resistant to chemical corrosion and thermal insulation, and very strong. It has also been added to the building information of countless aged houses. As a worker or homeowner, there is a risk when rehabilitating or shattering. The danger is that asbestos dust will be released into the air. When workers breathe, asbestos dust enters the mouth and nasal cavity, and then runs penetrating into the lungs along the respiratory tract. Dust settles in the fragile lung material, and the lung tissue communicates the sucked oxygen to the blood. The cadres of the immune plan tried to break down the asbestos dust, but were damaged and died. The blemish tissue formed around the dead cells becomes larger and larger as more dust is embedded in the scar tissue of the lungs. Asbestos dust can stay in the lungs for a long time, And the resulting scar tissue will continue to develop for many years after inhaling asbestos dust. Eventually, due to the development of so much scar tissue, the lungs stopped succeeding. Since 2000, more employees in British Columbia have died of asbestos disease The death toll from any other work-related accident is high. For information on how to protect yourself from exposure to asbestos, please visit WorkSafeBC.com ..

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LES Playground Used For Asbestos Testing

signalings warning of asbestos a cancer and lung disease hazard hanging in the playground of the city leads Stuart Park lives on Broome Street concern for parents that have children I have grandkids that come and visit they’re not visiting now the moves and the jives off limits because the building is being decontaminated construction workers are repointing bricks disturbing the harmful element and routing it into the air in these white-hot tents workers remove their hazmat dress and there’s even a shower if they’re going in there with the disguises and you know the jumpsuits why don’t “were having” concealments and jumpsuits I don’t think it’s fair who’s coming out to check out our breeze aspect did you ask them if you are safe now yeah and there was no answer the New York City Housing Authority says a third party is regularly testing the air quality and that the results are within state restraints 9 – disclaimed our request for an on-camera interview so over the phone I would like to know why they chose the playground to set up these decontamination tents a spokeswoman told me because there’s a lack of outdoor space the union rep for the construction workers says the signs and the blood-red caution tape are a precaution meantime people who live here are taking their own safety measures closing their windows “womens issues” says she babysits and she’s maintenance her kids far away but I make them to the park down the block now so I have no choice teenagers should be able to play here by Saturday but residents say they’d rather dally it safe than exposure their kids to potential poison on the Lower East Side Lisa Rosner CBS 2 News and before children will be allowed to play there again NYCHA says a contractor will wash down the playground and test the air quality to make sure

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Sonoma State University – Lead Awareness Training – August 5, 2014

okay so I’m gonna I’m gonna get going thank you everybody for coming the signing that you did sign went around is not only science so we don’t bouquet but also we release because our wonderful stephanie is reporting it and then we’ll put it through their youtube stuff will link it to our website so that people can view it in future and that type of thing is it’s good information for everybody so i will go ahead and jump into it we have a nice sized fruit today and so as we go through it you can ask questions i don’t mind getting interrupted as we’re going along but then there will definitely be time at the end of it for any questions and that that you have so yeah go ahead it’s pretty much the introduction i think most of you know me but I’m Frank Dawson I’m director of energy and environmental health and safety here on campus I’ve been here for I don’t know over 16 years for quite a while actually so we’re talking about leg today and what is lead many people have have played with it and use it Steve just as other you are steve has spent a lot of time with what this looks like to me which it almost looks like a lead pig we use lend a lot of different places on campus not only in our operations as part of equipment and other things which is why we’re always so big on recycling electronics and making sure that we get those back so they don’t go into the landfill but it’s also used in a lot of our coatings and I’ll get into that more as I go through the discussion but as far as what it is it’s got a low melting point it’s actually got a pretty low vaporizing point it vaporizes at about a thousand degrees and so for a metal that’s pretty low and then it’s got these qualities as far as an ability it works very well for containing certain types of alpha and radioactive waves and things like that so it’s got a lot of uses so where it’s been commonly used in the past and and any of us that are a little bit older now which I always have to myself the category of but is I certainly remember when it was used in gasoline and that was one of the biggest fuses I was actually a mechanic in those days and it was a big concern of how we’re going to possibly live without it because it worked as a lubricant the engine and so they had do different things to be able to face that out of the gasoline but that was over time one of our biggest sources you could think about along highways and huge interchanges and stuff especially in some of the inner cities and that how much of that exhaust can build up over time on the soil smelting the biggest use now of land in the country and really in the world is lead acid batteries we use a huge amount here for our IT folks for the UPC backup jacked up batteries and car batteries and all sorts of things like that there’s a lot of new technologies coming out in that that we won’t get into a lot of them are even way more hazardous but that’s one of their primary uses and then paint coating sauders and all of those types of things as well so in the late 50s they started phasing them out of residential use by 78 the Consumer Product Safety Commission had really pushed for in residential that they get below 600 parts per million for the paint that was used in the houses because again that’s for so much of the exposure has come from over time but something that’s important that everybody doesn’t have an awareness of keep in mind is that lead paint is still being used today in shipping industries on a lot of steel that’s manufactured products and pieces that we still buy today and things that go into especially buildings like the student center and that normally things that you can’t get to in contact but structural components and that still still use that as an industrial coating okay so as we moved along in the 50s you can pretty much oh yeah Pat it could be anything they can go well into the thousands tens of thousands parts per million they really quickly get up into percentages as opposed to parts per million no it was across the board based on the application and some of the things that you would think would be the most benign like white paint clear varnishes on wood floors were often times some of the highest numbers that were well up into the tens of thousands so in the 50s you pretty much can be assured that you’re going to have lead paint inside and outside on painted services 50s and 60s it starts to narrow down a little there’s still a lot on the inside as far as trims and doors and things like that and then when you get up to 78 is where you really start seeing the cut off and that’s where we kind of use is our basic cut off although we still do some testing on newer buildings than that if we’re going to do renovations and that type of thing when you finally get to a point where it’s less likely that you’re going to run into the lead as far as what in this kind of little goes a little bit back to what you’re asking about Pat there’s a lot of different definitions of what is lead containing paint what is a hazardous waste that has led in it and all of these different ways of viewing it what’s the concentration it’s okay in the air and all of these types of things and so just kind of focusing on the paint because for our general folks that work on campus here and that don’t work with the lead paint material or don’t have a specific applications and their work areas these are the ones that that most closely associate what you’re doing so EPA has the five thousand parts per million or the half a percent as far as the concentration in the paint that we start to become more regulated but then there’s always the sides from OSHA which is OSHA is concerned about protecting the worker the people that are actually dealing with the material there’s no limit as far as how how low it goes and there’s some very interesting interpretations on both that and asbestos that are somewhat challenging some times in the industrial hygiene world to do the amount of sampling and that that’s necessary to make sure that you’re safe guarding people especially when you’re talking about very new buildings that that everybody knows don’t contain it but there still are some requirements for doing verifications so it’s it’s somewhat interesting there so where can it be on campus on the left here is is one of our lovely little pumps it’s still in in action today that runs the hot water through the campus from our central plant and heats buildings for us the the coatings and paints in those types of areas are almost guaranteed to contain lead and even on newer equipment is is almost assured to have some levels of lead on it on the right is a very typical just a white wall the colors not critical whether it’s going to contain lead or not but more often than not the darker the color is especially the greens and blues the more likely on the older locations that they will contain lead and so again that 78-year kind of becomes important and anything newer that that we buy especially from from our local vendor and that our book supply has you know since close to the 78 time frame has not been let we use regular correct yes the outside pay the only place that we have issue with with lead and we do we were distributor it’s it’s kind of a good point or a time for a sidebar for that we’re producer and distributor of our own water on campus and so we pump it out of the ground we disinfect it and we distribute it to campus and so as part of that process we do very extensive monitoring and sampling of the water throughout campus to make sure that it meets all the standards and we have consumer confidence report that is posted online each year and that in the cabernet complex which is one of our older complexes and of course it’s always you know all of you are familiar with the state process and the low bidder challenges and everything that that complex that village was built just before you weren’t allowed to use lead solder anymore and so it was being phased out at that time and so it was probably a nice deal for whoever the low bid contractor was that built that building but it’s been this long and we’re just starting to see one or two spot areas where we have had a detection of lead in the drinking water there so things are posted out there there’s specific protocols where people run their water for a certain amount of time we’ve gone an extra step or i should say housing has gone an extra step and put brita filters on all of the kitchen sinks so that there’s an additional option there and we’re hoping by next year that that that village gets completely remodeled which will replace all of that piping but we do continuous monitoring for the types of things to ensure that that the water quality and that is is good so the buildings in the years on campus just to kind of associate to what can have and this pairs very very closely to asbestos as well and I didn’t want to cover asbestos because it would just make it too long of a of a workshop for today but I can always do another one if there’s interest for it but these are the dates that the buildings were originally built and then if there was a renovation it’s listed on the right side when we do renovations of buildings on campus we really renovate down to the structural members and Darwin is a good example Salazar is another good example they’re literally driving skid loaders and things like that through the buildings while they’re under renovation it’s just the structural pieces that maintain and so at those times we make every effort that we can to have all of the hazardous materials abated out of those buildings so it’s not a burden for us managing them and people working on them going forward and so you know we always come up to to the struggles of cost and benefit so there are a couple places in Darwin that we have identified that are behind sheetrock walls that are structural concrete pillars that still do have leg containing paint on them but it just it didn’t make any financial sense to go to the extent and the cost to remove to that level but we really go to a great lengths to remove as much as we can so again these will be posted online along with the whole presentation so if you’re ever curious about the age of the different buildings and facilities you’ll be able to see it on here so now we’re going to go into the health hazards of what the material can do and the threats of it so the two basic routes of exposure LED is inhalation and ingestion inhalation really comes from when it gets airborne and you breathe in recycled us and it gets taken up by your blood and ingestion is really from swallowing with with children the biggest thing over time has been the lead paint chips and that type of thing around their their homes and with workers it’s more often than not poor personal hygiene in other words they’re not washing their hands well after they’re doing activities that involve lead or they’re having sandwiches or I always pick on cigarette smokers they go out for a quick cigarette break without washing their hands when they’ve been doing tasks that have lead involved and so that’s some of the biggest ways that you get the exposures when I was chatting with Jennifer just before the class and she’s from from County Health and she brought some stuff that you’re welcome to look after especially if you’ve got kids and that type of thing on the childhood lead prevention because of course children are the most susceptible group for lead and they take it up into their bodies and during the developmental stages it has a far more profound and long-term impact and more easily impacted than that us as adults but there is information up there about it and so we were discussing you know even these days you know little giveaways in expensive toys you were mentioning I think a reebok give away from somebody you buy a shoe and you get this little bracelet thing on that the the levels of lead and a lot of those types of things are you know I’ve seen a lot of reports where they’re actually high enough to be considered a hazardous material they gave the shoes Sattler stomach at least chat LED and system child died several days later procedures so I mean there’s there’s a lot of safeguarding and we’re focusing on all of us has adult some people that work on this campus but I always try to bring you know that personal site in as well and one of the one of the biggest exposures I learned a couple years ago for children in our area for lead exposure is actually our keys and you know you have your little infant and oh yes just be quiet playing with this thing and that type of thing and they’ll suck on on the keys and there’s a lot of different especially with our fancy electronic cars and that there’s a lot of different types of metals including lead that can be on those keys so just kind of throw that out there in case you have kids to you know kind of get you thinking in that direction health effects lead again I mentioned this it gets into your blood stream if it’s eaten or inhaled spreads throughout your body it gets extreme adore or pass through your body to some extent but then to some extent it accumulates in your body and especially in certain types of organs and in your teeth and bones which especially for pregnant women or women that that may have worked in an industry soldering industry in that and then gone on to have children later when all of the hormonal changes and weight changes and everything happened with that it can often times cause a a release or glad of that material from a long time ago to get into your system and so that that can be a big concern and one of the biggest things with the second bullet here is is continued exposure is is the most detrimental most hazardous types of situations those keys they have toys that are saying you have a house that’s got paint that’s chipping on it I you know you you get a little dorky when you work in the environment i do and i just got back from a camping trip and I’ve got pictures i went to bode ghost town and I’ve got pictures of the the window putty that they used on all the windows that was all friable asbestos and the paint that there’s almost no paint left but I guarantee from that era was all paint so if we took samples of the ground I guarantee we could find percentages and and that type of thing it’s just you know it’s it’s really important to be cognizant of where it can come from so that you don’t find yourself in a situation with ongoing exposures you know I finally got enough money and i bought my Victorian house i’m going to spend the next 10 years remodeling it it’s a wonderful thing just make sure that you’re going through in a way that you keep yourself healthy so prolonged chronic exposures basically can affect most everything and as jennifer and mentioned with the children especially can definitely lead to death so can affect brain kidneys we hear a lot about especially in younger children I think that you normally focus on five or six to younger for IQ impacts you say round two they should have had two tested we see them all the way up you know what their situation demographics so you can see it’s it’s very impacting I mentioned a couple of these already with the reproductive systems and that so more chronic effects severe damage to the blood-forming nervous system urinary loss of appetite it goes through the whole cadre of things which in my industry you know not that media this is funny or laughable but it’s kind of the joke I’ve got half of those symptoms oh no you know type of thing but that’s one of the challenges with this and with a lot of actual diseases that are bacterial or viral based is they do present themselves so often initially as other types of things and and they often will get missed for those types of reasons and so again real important to know your your area and what you’ve got going on okay reproductive again both in men and women it’s not just something that affects women that can be affected and again these are normally occupational larger exposures okay hypertension blood levels of less and now we’re we start to get into a little bit of numbers and you’ll see a little bit more numbers especially depending on questions you might have but 20 micrograms per deciliter is is what what i would consider in this day and age a pretty pretty high level for our area it’s not something that you would would expect to see if you 6018 was the average wow I didn’t know that and I do recall from reading and preparing for this presentation that the average across at least across the u.s.The tire worldwide is 1.38 which etch which actually even requires some specialized blood sampling because the normal detection limit is two on on that so that’s a real plus for for us and another one of those fortunate things about the country we’re in okay so other chronic effects low moderate levels of lead exposure been associated adverse changes in kidney function and you know just goes on and on from there hypertension plays into diabetes and and all those types of things acute health exposure or acute health effects when you’re really getting high exposures and I’ve underlined the extremely high high amounts there is when you really get into you know these types of examples that are much more susceptible for children but certainly possible not impossible for adults to experience is you know clear up to see yours and that’s and that type of thing okay so enough of the doom and gloom portion of it and what do we have here and and what do you do or should you do as part of the campus community to help us manage it and make sure that that everybody stays safe with it identification is the most important part and Tom sergeant that wasn’t able to be here today is our specialist in the arena and and he’s obtained certifications in Inlet inspections and other areas and when you have any type of construction activity or modification to an area or you see damage in an area we have a whole range of a crew of maintenance folks that have been trained on what we call O&M or operations and maintenance so they can just come in and if it’s a small area they can assume that it’s either asbestos-containing your leg containing and do certain work procedures which are primarily keeping things wet and contained and that type of thing and do repairs to if we’re going to do bigger remodels or we’re going to hang big things on the wall that needs structural support and things like that then we’ll actually run tests and send those samples to the labs to definitively know whether there’s material there or not one of the big caveats that I want to put in here even then I know it’s a real important one for Thomas and we don’t want anyone to get confused about it is we are trying to put more and more information on our website so that that people can see and understand more more what we do have around and so we are now maintaining as fastest and led sample results that have been collected on campus over time on our website the very important thing to to know about that and trying to see if it was on this side or if it’s on another slide but the thing that’s very important is that it takes a skilled trained person to know and understand and have more mobility at all okay this was all painted at the same time so i can take X number of samples represent this wall 54 look at closer notice that there’s some damages odd colors don’t quite match or something and recognize that it may have been applied at a different time or a different manner so now you have a sample of those different area to make sure that the material is not there so he gets very involved so the biggest takeaway from that is just because you’re doing something maybe in a given room and you happen to be a researcher type person and you’ve looked on that list and you say oh look there’s been samples taken in this room before and they were not attacked so I must be good to go and take off with whatever you want to do don’t make that assumption still go through our process and make sure that we identify exactly for the scope of work that you want to do so again like I meant mentioned building becomes damaged the the major predominant areas that you worry about damage where it may release you know either asbestos or LED or anything like that is from floors walls ceilings and components like that you know especially if your ceiling seeing peeling paint we had we had lunch in a place it was a perfect example I just didn’t transfer the picture over soon enough but dark green paint older building where it’s just big chunks are starting to appeal from the ceiling you know we we put extra covers down before we put our plates down on the table and a quickly and left type of thing so you still see those things around but but our folks do a really good job of maintaining the campus and a lot of it is just about letting us know as soon or if you see something in these areas I mentioned the part if if anything needs to be modified or even if you’re wanting to do something simple like Hank and that type of thing they these things aren’t is all about the lead and asbestos they also fall into other general safety areas of you know hanging a picture sound simple but is the picture going to be possibly above a waiting area where students may be sitting and that anchor that you’ve put in the wall isn’t sturdy enough for whatever that picture was we have a small shaker or something happens and that picture falls on on a person and things like that so it’s it’s just very important to go through that work order system and go through customer service so that the folks that are trained on doing these types of installations and on that type of work can be the ones that that actually do that so that we can have the highest level of confidence that it’s done properly and it’s going to hold up for the amount of time we need and the conclusions are fairly straightforward but we we do a lot of work to maintain the buildings in good condition a lot of people over time last why don’t you just remove all of it all of the lead all this bestest all the hazardous stuff and be done with it and then move on it’s just incredibly one expensive and too it’s not practical in the sense that a lot of those materials especially the asbestos materials that they originally had are some really good stuff I mean whether they have have bad materials in them or none there they’re very solid materials they really stand the test of time depending on where they are and how they’re being used we have a lot of components here that have been in place since the 60s that are still doing their job just as good as is when they were first installed and so as long as we are able to to manage it check the the different materials and make sure that they are maintained in a good condition where they’re not going to become an issue for any of us then we’re in a very good state with those and so that’s what we tried to do and like I mentioned earlier when we do those bigger renovations we really do take that opportunity to remove everything from those facilities if the structure itself is still going to stand as we build back out well the thermal system insulation is one of the biggest examples but that’s in usually in mechanical rooms and usually not in spaces that people can get to in some of the buildings it may be above drop ceilings and that that’s the insulation paints on the soffits around the PE building as well as underneath the penthouse on this building on the commons and on Stephens all of those were originally painted with lead containing paint and so when they were redone again doesn’t make financial sense to try and strip them down to bare metal and then paint them anything that’s loose is is cleaned and cleared off of it and then it’s painted over to you know one repaint and get the surface we need so it looks better but to it also helps to encapsulate or trap that material but then that becomes an important piece for us to note and take record of because when we do get to a renovation point that’s something that we need to keep in mind and that’s one of the biggest things that’s been I know my pet peeve and we’ve got a lot of great facility support to avoid doing this these days but happened a lot in the past was with the flooring a lot of the vinyl asbestos tile the the small nine by nine tiles and Stevenson and parson and Nichols is asbestos-containing and what facilities was getting in the habit of just to try and and be economical and save some money was the lake over the top of those tiles it’s nice from a perspective that then you’re not touching the tiles and we’ve done a lot of work in the last year or so to to build up our waxes and materials to protect our tiles so that they don’t become impacted but what ultimately happens is then when you do go to remove that material you’re now spending two or three times the disposal costs because all of that tile is going to be stuck to that glue down carpet and there’s no way to separate it for disposal purposes and so we really even though it’s an added cost for people that want up the carpet in a room or do something along those lines we really try and encourage and push people to have that tile removed and half the glue underneath removed so that we’re it a clean slate in that room and it won’t be a bigger burden later on the easiest answer for me is that’s not my area you know ultimately you can trim the bottom of the door so it still opens and doesn’t hit your flooring but I don’t know i’m not familiar with your particular situation or how how that came to be but like I say we just you know from from the pier EH&S perspective we just really kind of push and encourage everybody this is what it is and this is what the baggage is and please don’t look at it for well I’m only going to be in this office for five or ten more years and then I’m either retiring or movement or doing whatever but think about it for you know we’re an institution we’re not going anywhere all of us are just stewards for the amount of time we’re here we’re passing on to somebody else and so you know let’s let’s leave them this little baggage possible so I hope that helps I hope that helps doesn’t really answer your question but I don’t know yes unless of course it’s just an area rug that’s not adhere to the floor but yes when it when it gets it here did it it becomes that whole issue of now you’ve got a bunch more waste when you multiple have to deal with yeah yep once they actually go to remove all of the layers but you know we can’t look at the upside and there’s a good chance they could pull the two carpets part at least battle all remain to be seen any other questions I think this is just you know again a very obvious type of thing that one of the things that that we come across often but again it’s not in general access areas but is in more mechanical rooms and things like that we have a lot of small transformers that reduce voltages from from one level to another that gets their gray and they get peeling paint on them and those were led containing as well and so our maintenance folks have actually gotten very first at dealing with those as far as is scraping them and we don’t try to again fully strip them we’re just getting the loose material off because the flaking and loose materials were trying to prevent so it’s not getting out into the environment and so you know again it’s really those types of things that you’re concerned about and and want to keep an eye on where else could you find it i mentioned this because i’m back in in a previous life when I was a consultant and was doing a lot of work for sun microsystems at that time we were doing a lot of air sampling for what they call a solder draws operation basically they were doing kind of tabletop printed circuit board type of manufacturing and the manufacturing part was fine and all the air sampling was fine on that but we wanted to investigate their cleaning operations and what happened there and and all of that type of thing well it was interesting process because through part of that process we did multiple types of blood sampling we did what they call a zinc protic orphan and which gives you more of an indicator of long-term exposure and then direct blood sampling which gives you an indication of shorter term 30 or 60 day type of blood exposure and it was very challenging for the particular group that we were working with because of the demographics of them and because their diet was heavily fish a lot of them had some pretty significant lead levels in their blood even outside of of the work environment and so it made it very tricky to separate those types of things out and so I put this up here just so you can kind of be cognizant of just a taste or a sampling of some of the other sources where these materials can come from and be an exposure to you associated to don’t forget what I did not know brass pictures bratz older brass tends to contain a lot of lead great thank you so you know those antique roadshow things I mean I’m I’m in all admitted I’m a DIY addict I’m always watching all those silly shows and you know that’s again that dorky side of my mind that’s right so is going to is when they’re grabbing these old pieces of furniture or old fixtures and stuff and we just sand them down and just do this and that and it’ll be 0 for the leg that’s actually going to come through in the water oh thank you very good to know yes unfortunately on campus we have no issues with those types of things because we really do try to change out and have lower flow and all of those types of things except in those specific older locations that I’ve mentioned where we had a couple to text and hopefully we’ll we’ll have all that resolve but that’s one of the big things is the the information that does get sent out and is posted on on the websites that type of thing for the campus really tries to to share any of that pertinent information as it comes up okay all right so now we’re to the question are any other questions that anybody has about the programs and that’s what we have on campus and like I say if you’re interested in in other topics asbestos is is extremely similar to lead as far as the way it’s managed as far as the age of buildings that have the material and that type of thing but I’m happy to discuss that one as well or other types of topics if they come up just you know final the the request factory I’m happy to set those up no this was actually a request through a settlement with the CSU EU and so they they wanted more training and more transparency and more information put out so no just for general population is that fair enough synopsis okay all right any other questions oh yes appears testimony Padma hi no they’re all in fact at this point and the home so vile on this but outside of the gluon tiles in the restrooms in certain buildings like Stevenson and probably Nichols all of the drop ceiling tiles at me though of which of those one monkey bars you can just lift the move out of the way have now been abated that they removed and they’re not as fascist in their place you’re hilarious you’re gonna steal trial rather than take all out knowing that so if we’re in an area such sniffles where is no building some work needs to be recommended jumping up into yourself told someday okay other classes Oh what are the recommended lid solder substitutes our wage I have have to look into that off the cuff I don’t you know or I am assuming you’re still using ones that are percentage led for your operations and I think fewer and I think for printed circuit board which is still you know going back to that electronic waste thing is still a huge a huge component and I’m happy to look into what some of the substitutes are but you know with all of those things there’s probably going to be some give-and-take from a cost from an effectiveness from an operational standpoint and all of those type of things but i’ll be happy to look into that in the general term for this is iso 9000 compliance free no it’s just a it’s just a direction you know like like with asbestos in life with a lot of other materials over time it’s been recognized as as the problem the prevalent problem that it has become and how much we’ve used it so it’s just a phasing phasing out of there no generic term see nope okay great well thank you very much everybody have a good afternoon you

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IMPEACHMENT TRIAL LIVE: White House legal team mounts Trump defense in Senate – 1/27/2020

THE PRESIDING OFFICER: THE SENATE WILL CONVENE AS A COURT EVER IMPEACHMENT. THE CHAPLAIN WILL LEAD US IN PRAYER. THE CHAPLAIN: LET US PRAY. LORD, THROUGH ALL THE GENERATIONS YOU HAVE BEEN OUR MIGHTY GOD. AS MILLIONS MOURN THE DEATHS OF KOBE AND GIANNA BRYANT AND THOSE WHO DIED WITH THEM, WE THINK ABOUT LIFE’S BREVITY, UNCERTAINTY, AND LEGACY. REMIND US THAT WE ALL HAVE A LIMITED TIME ON EARTH TO LEAVE THE WORLD BETTER THAN WE FOUND IT. AS THIS IMPEACHMENT PROCESS UNFOLDS, GIVE OUR SENATORS THE DESIRE TO MAKE THE MOST OF THEIR TIME ON EARTH TEACH THEM HOW TO LIVE, O GOD, AND LEAD THEM ALONG THE PATH OF HONESTY. MAY THEY HEAR THE WORDS OF JESUS OF NAZARETH REVERBERATING DOWN THE CORRIDORS OF THE CENTURIES. AND YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE. LORD, THANK YOU FOR GIVING OUR CHIEF JUSTICE ANOTHER BIRTHDAY. AMEN. THE PRESIDING OFFICER: PLEASE JOIN ME IN RECITING THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG. I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. THE PRESIDING OFFICER: IF THERE IS NO OBJECTION, THE JOURNAL OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE TRIAL ARE APPROVED TO DATE. WITHOUT OBJECTION, SO ORDERED. THE SERGEANT AT ARMS WILL MAKE THE PROCLAMATION. THE SERGEANT AT ARMS: HEAR YE, HEAR YE, HEAR YE! ALL PERSONS ARE COMMANDED TO KEEP SILENT, ON PAIN OF IMPRISONMENT, WHILE THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES IS SITTING FOR THE TRIAL OF THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT EXHIBITED BY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AGAINST DONALD JOHN TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. MR. McCONNELL: MR. CHIEF JUSTICE.THE PRESIDING OFFICER:ED MAJORITY LEADER IS RECOGNIZED. MR. McCONNELL: ON BEHALF 6 ALL OF US, HAPPY BIRTHDAY. I’M SURE IT’S EXACTLY HOW YOU PLANNED TO CELEBRATE THE DAY. THE PRESIDING OFFICER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THOSE KIND WISHES. THANK YOU TO ALL THE SENATORS FOR NOT ASKING FOR THE YEAS AND NAYS. MR. McCONNELL: FOR THE INFORMATION OF ALL SENATOR, WE SHOULD EXPECT TO BREAK EVERY TWO OR THREE HOURS AND THEN AT 6:00, A BREAK FOR DINNER. AND WITH THAT, MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, I YIELD THE FLOOR. THE PRESIDING OFFICER: PURSUANT TO THE PROVISIONS OF SENATE RESOLUTION 483, THE COUNSEL FOR THE PRESIDENT HAVE 223 — 22 HOURS AND 5 MINUTES REMAINING TO MAKE THE PRESENTATION OF THEIR CASE. THE SENATE WILL NOW HEAR YOU. MR. SEKULOW. MR. SEKULOW: THANK YOU, MR. CHIEF JUSTICE. MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, MANAGERS, WHAT WE’VE DONE ON SATURDAY IS THE PATTERN THAT WE’RE GOING TO CONTINUE TODAY AS FAR AS HOW WE’RE GOING TO DEAL WITH THE CASE. WE DEAL WITH TRANSCRIPT EVIDENCE. WE DEAL WITH PUBLICLY AVAILABLE INFORMATION. WE DO NOT DEAL WITH SPECULATION, ALLEGATIONS THAT ARE NOT BASED ON EVIDENTIARY STANDARDS AT ALL. WE ARE GOING TO HIGHLIGHT SOME OF THOSE VERY FACTS WE TALKED ABOUT VERY QUICKLY.ON SATURDAY. YOU’RE GOING TO HEAR A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THAT LET GE MIGHT YOU AN VOAFER VIEW OF WHAT WE PLAN TO DO IN OUR PRESENTATION. YOU’LL HEAR FROM A NUMBER OF LAWYERS. EACH ONE OF THESE LAWYERS WILL BE ADDRESSING A PARTICULAR ASPECT OF THE PRESIDENT’S CASE. I WILL INTRODUCE THE ISSUES TAKE THEY’RE GOING TO DISCUSS AND THAT INDIVIDUAL LAWYER WILL COME UP AND MAKE THEIR PRESENTATION. WE WANT TO DO THIS ON AN EXPEDITIOUS YET THOROUGH BASIS. LET ME START WITH JUST FOR A VERY BRIEF FEW MOMENTS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHERE WE WERE.ONE OF THE THINGS THAT BECAME VERY CLEAR TO US AS WE LOOKED AT THE PRESENTATION FROM THE HOUSE MANAGERS WAS THE LACK OF FOCUS ON THAT JULY 25 TRANSCRIPT. AND THAT’S BECAUSE THE TRANSCRIPT ACTUALLY DOESN’T SAY WHAT THEY WOULD LIKE IT TO SAY. NOW, WE’VE HEARD AND YOU WILL HEAR MORE ABOUT THAT IN THE DAYS AHEAD. WE KNOW ABOUT MR. SCHIFF’S VERSION OF THE TRANSCRIPT. YOU HEARD IT. YOU SAW IT. I WANT TO KEEP COMING BACK TO FACTS. FACTS THAT ARE REALLY UNDISPUTED. THE PRESIDENT IN HIS CONVERSATION WAS CLEAR ON A NUMBER OF POINTS. BUT SO WAS PRESIDENT ZELENSKY. I MENTIONED THAT AT THE CLOSE OF MY ARGUMENTS EARLIER THAT IT WAS PRESIDENT ZELENSKY THAT SAID NO PRESSURE. I DIDN’T FEEL ANY PRESSURE. AND AGAIN A KIND OF READING OF MINDS WHAT PEOPLE WERE SAYING.THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SAID AND HOW IT’S BACKED UP. IT IS OUR POSITION AS THE PRESIDENT’S COUNSEL THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS AT ALL TIMES ACTING UNDER HIS CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY, UNDER HIS LEGAL AUTHORITY, INTERNATIONAL INTERESTS, AND PURSUANT TO HIS OATH OF OFFICE. ASKING A FOREIGN LEADER TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF ISSUES OF CORRUPTION IS NOT A VIOLATION OF AN OATH. IT WAS INTERESTING BECAUSE THERE WAS A LOT OF DISCUSSION THE OTHER DAY ABOUT LIEUTENANT COLONEL VINDMAN AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE REITERATE IS THAT HE HIMSELF SAID HE DID NOT KNOW IF THERE WAS ANYTHING OF A CRIME OR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE.HE HAD DEEP POLICY CONCERNS. I THINK THAT IS WHAT THIS IS REALLY ABOUT IS DEEP POLICY CONCERNS, DEEP POLICY DIFFERENCES. BUT WE LIVE IN A CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC WHERE YOU HAVE DEEP POLICY CONCERNS AND DEEP DIFFERENCES. THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE BASIS OF AN IMPEACHMENT. IF THE BAR OF IMPEACHMENT HAS NOW REACHED THAT LEVEL, THEN FOR THE SAKE OF THE REPUBLIC, THE DANGER THAT PUTS NOT JUST THIS BODY BUT OUR ENTIRE CONSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK IN IS UNMANAGEABLE. EVERY TIME THERE IS A POLICY DIFFERENCE OF SIGNIFICANCE OR AN APPROACH DIFFERENCE ABOUT A POLICY, WE’RE GOING TO START AN IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDING? AS I SAID EARLIER, I DON’T REALLY THINK THIS WAS ABOUT JUST A PHONE CALL. THERE WAS A PATTERN IN PRACTICE — AND PRACTICE OF ATTEMPTS OVER A THREE-YEAR PERIOD TO NOT ONLY INTERFERE WITH THE PRESIDENT’S CAPABILITY TO GOVERN, WHICH BY THE WAY THEY WERE COMPLETELY UNSUCCESSFUL AT.JUST LOOK AT THE STATE OF WHERE WE ARE AT A COUNTRY. BUT ALSO INTERFERE WITH OUR CONSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK. I’M GOING TO SAY THIS. BECAUSE I WANT TO BE BRIEF. WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A SERIES OF LAWYERS ADDRESS YOU. SO IT WILL NOT BE ONE LAWYER FOR HOURS AND HOURS. WE’LL HAVE A SERIES OF LAWYERS ADDRESS YOU ON A VARIETY OF ISSUES. THIS IS HOW WE ENVISION THE PRESIDENT’S DEFENSE GOING. WE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO START WITH AN OVERVIEW, IF YOU WILL, OF SOME OF THE SIGNIFICANT HISTORICAL ISSUES AND CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES INVOLVING IMPEACHMENT PROCEDURES SINCE WE DON’T HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF THAT AND I THINK IT’S GOOD FOR THE COUNTRY THAT WE DON’T.AND I THINK WE WOULD ALL AGREE. BUT IF THIS BECOMES THE NEW STANDARD, THE FUTURE IS GOING TO LOOK A LOT DIFFERENT. SO WE’RE GOING TO HEAR NEXT FROM MY COCOUNSEL JUDGE KENNETH STARR. JUDGE STARR IS A FORMER JUDGE FOR THE U.S. COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. HE SERVED AS THE 39th SOLICITOR GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES ARGUING CASES BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES. I HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF ARGUING A CASE ALONGSIDE JUDGE STARR — WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER — MANY YEARS AGO. HE ALSO SERVED AS THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL DURING THE CLINTON PRESIDENCY AND OFFERED THE STARR REPORT. HE TESTIFIED FOR ALMOST 12 HOURS BEFORE THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE WITH REGARD TO THAT REPORT.JUDGE STARR IS VERY FAMILIAR WITH THIS PROCESS. HE IS GOING TO ADDRESS A SERIES OF DEFICIENCIES ON LEGAL ISSUES WITH REGARD TO ARTICLES 1 AND 2. CONSTITUTIONAL IMPLICATIONS, HISTORICAL IMPLICATIONS, AND LEGAL IMPLICATIONS OF WHERE THIS CASE NOW STANDS. SO I WOULD LIKE TO YIELD MY TIME RIGHT NOW TO, IF IT WOULD PLEASE THE CHIEF JUSTICE, KEN STARR. THE PRESIDING OFFICER: MR. STARR. MR. STARR: THANK YOU. MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, HOUSE MANAGERS, AND STAFF, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, THE MAJORITY LEADER AND THE MINORITY LEADER. AT THE BEGINNING OF THESE PROCEEDINGS, ON JANUARY 16, THE CHIEF JUSTICE ADMINISTERED THE OATH OF OFFICE TO THE MEMBERS OF THIS BODY.AND THEN AGAIN ON TUESDAY. IN DOING SO, THE CHIEF JUSTICE WAS HONORING THE WORDS OF OUR CONSTITUTION. ARTICLE 1, SECTION 3. WE ALL KNOW THE FIRST SENTENCE OF THAT ARTICLE BY HEART. THE SENATE SHALL HAVE THE SOLE POWER TO TRY ALL IMPEACHMENTS. BUT THEN THE CONSTITUTIONAL TEXT GOES ON TO SAY THIS — WHEN SITTING FOR THAT PURPOSE, THEY SHALL BE ON OATH OR AFFIRMATION. THAT OATH OR AFFIRMATION IN TURN REQUIRES EACH MEMBER OF THE SENATE TO DO IMPARTIAL JUSTICE. NOW, THIS CONSTITUTIONALLY ADMINISTERED OATH OR AFFIRMATION HAS BEEN GIVEN IN EVERY PROCEEDING IN THIS BODY SINCE 1798. INDEED, TO SIGNIFY THE IMPORTANCE OF THE OCCASION, THE SENATE’S MORE RECENT TRADITIONS CALL FOR YOU, AS YOU DID, TO SIGN THE BOOK, AND THAT BOOK IS NOT SIMPLY PART OF THE RECORD, IT’S ENTRUSTED TO THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES.IN CONTRAST, MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES DO NOT TAKE AN OATH IN CONNECTION WITH IMPEACHMENT. THE FRAMERS OF OUR CONSTITUTION WELL KNEW WHEN AN OATH OR AFFIRMATION SHOULD BE REQUIRED. THE SENATE, YES. THE HOUSE, NO. AND THUS, EACH MEMBER OF THE WORLD’S GREATEST DELIBERATIVE BODY NOW HAS SPECIAL, INDEED UNIQUE DUTIES AND OBLIGATIONS. DUTIES IMPOSED UNDER OUR FOUNDING DOCUMENT. DURING THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT TRIAL 21 YEARS AGO IN THIS CHAMBER, THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE UNITED STATES RULED IN RESPONSE TO AN OBJECTION THAT WAS INTERPOSED BY SENATOR TOM HARKIN OF IOWA.THE SENATORS ARE NOT SITTING AS JURORS, SENATOR HARKIN NOTED. AND THE CHIEF JUSTICE AGREED WITH THAT PROPOSITION. RATHER, THE SENATE IS A COURT. IN FACT, HISTORY TEACHES US THAT FOR LITERALLY DECADES, THIS BODY WAS REFERRED TO IN THIS CONTEXT AS THE HIGH COURT OF IMPEACHMENT. SO WE’RE NOT A LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER DURING THESE PROCEEDINGS. WE’RE IN A TRIBUNAL. WE’RE IN COURT. IN FEDERALIST 78, ALEXANDER HAMILTON, WHO HAS BEEN QUOTED FREQUENTLY IN THESE PROCEEDINGS, BUT IN FEDERALIST 78, HE WAS DESCRIBING THE ROLE OF COURTS. YOUR ROLE. AND IN DOING SO, HE DISTINGUISHED BETWEEN WHAT HE CALLED THE EXERCISE OF JUDGMENT ON THE ONE HAND, WHICH IS WHAT COURTS DO, AND THE EXERCISE OF WILL OR POLICY PREFERENCES, IF YOU WILL, ON THE OTHER HAND. THAT’S WHAT LEGISLATIVE BODIES DO.ACCORDING TO HAMILTON, COURTS WERE TO BE, IN HIS WORD, IMPARTIAL. THERE’S THAT WORD AGAIN. AND YOU KNOW, THAT’S A DAUNTING TASK FOR JUDGES STRUGGLING TO DO THE RIGHT THING, TO BE IMPARTIAL. EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER LAW. IT’S CERTAINLY HARD IN LIFE TO BE IMPARTIAL. IN POLITICS, IT’S NOT EVEN ASKED OF ONE TO BE IMPARTIAL. BUT THAT’S THE TASK THAT THE CONSTITUTION CHOSE TO IMPOSE UPON EACH OF YOU.AND SIGNIFICANTLY, IN THIS PARTICULAR JUNCTURE IN AMERICA’S HISTORY, THE SENATE IS BEING CALLED TO SIT AS THE HIGH COURT OF IMPEACHMENT ALL TOO FREQUENTLY. INDEED, WE ARE LIVING IN WHAT I THINK CAN APTLY BE DESCRIBED AS THE AGE OF IMPEACHMENT. IN THE HOUSE, RESOLUTION AFTER RESOLUTION, MONTH AFTER MONTH HAS CALLED FOR THE PRESIDENT’S IMPEACHMENT. HOW DID WE GET HERE? WITH PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT INVOKED FREQUENTLY, IN ITS INHERENTLY DESTABILIZING AS WELL AS ACRIMONIOUS WAY. BRIEFLY TOLD, THE STORY BEGINS 42 YEARS AGO IN THE WAKE OF THE LONG NATIONAL NIGHTMARE OF WATERGATE, CONGRESS AND PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER COLLABORATIVELY USHERED IN A NEW CHAPTER IN AMERICA’S CONSTITUTIONAL HISTORY. TOGETHER, IN FULL AGREEMENT, THEY ENACTED THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL PROVISIONS OF THE ETHICS IN GOVERNMENT ACT OF 1978. BUT THE NEW CHAPTER WAS NOT SIMPLY THE AGE OF INDEPENDENT COUNSELS. IT BECAME, UNBEKNOWNST TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THE AGE OF IMPEACHMENT.DURING MY SERVICE IN THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION AS COUNSEL AND CHIEF OF STAFF TO ATTORNEY GENERAL WILLIAM FRENCH SMITH, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TOOK THE POSITION THAT HOWEVER WELL-INTENTIONED THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL PROVISIONS WERE UNCONSTITUTIONAL. WHY? IN THE VIEW OF THE DEPARTMENT, THOSE PROVISIONS INTRUDED INTO THE RIGHTFUL DOMAIN AND PREROGATIVE OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH OF THE PRESIDENCY. THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT’S POSITION WAS EVENTUALLY REJECTED BY THE SUPREME COURT, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY IN HELPING US UNDERSTAND THIS NEW ERA IN OUR COUNTRY’S HISTORY, JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ANTONIN SCALIA WAS IN DEEP DISSENT. AMONG HIS STINGING CRITICISMS OF THAT LAW, JUSTICE SCALIA WROTE THIS — THE CONTEXT OF THIS STATUTE IS ACRID WITH THE SMELL OF THREATENED IMPEACHMENT. IMPEACHMENT. JUSTICE SCALIA ECHOED THE CRITICISM OF THE COURT IN WHICH I WAS SERVING AT THE TIME, THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT, WHICH HAD ACTUALLY STRUCK DOWN THE LAW AS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, AND A VERY IMPRESSIVE OPINION BY RENOWNED JUDGE LAWRENCE SILBERMAN. WHY? WHY WOULD JUSTICE SCALIA REFER TO IMPEACHMENT? THIS WAS A REFORM MEASURE.THERE WOULD BE NO MORE SATURDAY NIGHT MASSACRES, THE FIRING OF SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, AS HE WAS CALLED, ARCHIBALD COX BY PRESIDENT NIXON. GOVERNMENT WOULD NOW BE BETTER, MORE HONEST, GREATER ACCOUNTABILITY, AND THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL WOULD BE PROTECTED. BUT THE WORD IMPEACHMENT HAUNTS THAT DISSENTING OPINION, AND IT’S NOT HARD TO DISCOVER WHY. BECAUSE THE STATUTE BY ITS TERMS EXPRESSLY DIRECTED THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL TO BECOME IN EFFECT AN AGENT OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. AND TO WHAT END? TO REPORT TO THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WHEN A VERY LOW THRESHOLD OF INFORMATION WAS RECEIVED THAT AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE LEFT UNDEFINED MAY HAVE BEEN COMMITTED. TO PARAPHRASE PRESIDENT CLINTON’S VERY ABLE COUNSEL AT THE TIME, BERNIE NUSSEBAUM, THIS STATUTE IS A DAGGER AIMED AT THE HEART OF THE PRESIDENCY. PRESIDENT CLINTON, NONETHELESS, SIGNED THE REAUTHORIZED MEASURE INTO LAW, AND THE NATION THEN WENT THROUGH THE LONG PROCESS KNOWN AS WHITEWATER. RESULTING IN THE FINDINGS BY THE OFFICE WHICH I LED, THE OFFICE OF INDEPENDENT COUNSEL.IN A WRITTEN REPORT TO THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, THAT REFERRAL TO CONGRESS WAS STIPULATEED IN THE ETHICS AND GOVERNMENT ACT OF 1978. TO PUT IT MILDLY, DEMOCRATS WERE VERY UPSET ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED. THEY THEN JOINED REPUBLICANS ACROSS THE AISLE WHO FOR THEIR PART HAD BEEN OUTRAGED BY AN EARLIER INDEPENDENT COUNSEL INVESTIGATION, THAT OF A VERY DISTINGUISHED FORMER JUDGE, LAWRENCE WALSH. DURING THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION, JUDGE WALSH’S INVESTIGATION OF WHAT BECAME KNOWN TO THE COUNTRY AS IRAN-CONTRA SPAWNED ENORMOUS CRITICISM ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE OF THE AISLE, BOTH AS TO THE INVESTIGATION ITSELF BUT ALSO AS TO STATUTE. THE ACRIMONY SURROUNDING IRAN-CONTRA AND THEN THE IMPEACHMENT AND THE TRIAL AND PRESIDENT CLINTON’S ACQUITTAL BY THIS BODY LED INEXORABLY TO THE END OF THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL ERA. ENOUGH WAS ENOUGH. AND LIVING THROUGH THAT WILDLY CONTROVERSIAL 21-YEAR BOLD EXPERIMENT WITH THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL STATUTE, CONGRESS IN A BIPARTISAN WAY HAD A CHANGE OF HEART.IT ALLOWED THE LAW TO EXPIRE IN ACCORDANCE WITH ITS TERMS IN 1999. THAT WOULD BE THE WELL-INTENTIONED REFORM MEASURE DIED A QUIET AND UNEVENTFUL DEATH, AND IT WAS PROMPTLY REPLACED BY JUSTICE DEPARTMENT INTERNAL REGULATIONS PROMULGATED BY ATTORNEY GENERAL JANET RENO DURING THE WANING MONTHS OF THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION. ONE CAN REVIEW THOSE REGULATIONS AND SEE NO REFERENCE TO IMPEACHMENT. NONE. NO LONGER WERE THE POISON PILL PROVISIONS OF PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT PART OF AMERICA’S LEGAL LANDSCAPE. THEY WERE GONE. THE RENO REGULATIONS SEEMED TO SIGNAL A RETURN TO TRADITIONAL NORMS. IMPEACHMENT WOULD NO LONGER BE EMBEDDED IN THE ACTUAL LAWS OF THE LANDS BUT RETURNED TO THE LANGUAGE OF THE CONSTITUTION.BUT IN THE MEANTIME, AMERICA’S CONSTITUTIONAL D.N.A. AND ITS POLITICAL CULTURE HAD CHANGED. EVEN WITH THE DAWN OF THE NEW CENTURY, THE 21st CENTURY, IMPEACHMENT REMAINED ON THE LIPS OF COUNTLESS AMERICANS AND ECHOED FREQUENTLY IN THE PEOPLE’S HOUSE. THE IMPEACHMENT HABIT PROVED TO BE HARD TO KICK. IRONICALLY, WHILE THIS WAS HAPPENING HERE AT HOME, ACROSS THE ATLANTIC, THE USE OF IMPEACHMENT AS A WEAPON DISAPPEARED. AND THE UNITED KINGDOM, FROM WHICH, OF COURSE, WE INHERITED THE PROCESS, IMPEACHMENT WAS FIRST USED MORE THAN TWO CENTURIES BEFORE THOSE FIRST SETTLERS CROSSED THE ATLANTIC. BUT UPON THOUGHTFUL EXAMINATION, A NUMBER OF MODERN-DAY PARLIAMENT COMMITTEES LOOKED AND FOUND IMPEACHMENT TO BE OBSOLETE. AMONG OTHER CRITICISMS, MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT CAME TO THE VIEW THAT THE PRACTICE, WHICH HAD LAST BEEN ATTEMPTED IN BRITAIN IN 1868, FAILS TO MEET MODERN PROARLS STANDARDS OF FAIRNESS — PROCEDURAL STANDARDS OF FAIRNESS, FAIRNESS.AS SIR WILLIAM McKAY RECENTLY REMARKED, IMPEACHMENT IN BRITAIN IS DEAD. YET HERE AT HOME IN THE WORLD’S LONGEST STANDING CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, INSTEAD OF A ONCE-IN-A-CENTURY PHENOMENON, WHICH IT HAD BEEN, PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT HAS BECOME A WEAPON TO BE WIELDED AGAINST ONE’S POLITICAL OPPONENT. IN HER THOUGHTFUL “WALL STREET JOURNAL” OP-ED A WEEK AGO SATURDAY, PEGGY NOONAN WROTE THIS, IMPEACHMENT HAS NOW BEEN NORMALIZED. IT WON’T BE A ONCE-IN-A-GENERATION ACT BUT AN EVERY-ADMINISTRATION-ACT. DEMOCRATS WILL REGRET IT WHEN REPUBLICANS ARE HANDING OUT THE PENS. THE PENS OF THE SIGNING CEREMONY. WHEN WE LOOK BACK DOWN THE CORRIDORS OF TIME, WE SEE THAT FOR ALMOST OUR FIRST CENTURY AS A CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, THE SWORD OF PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT REMAINED SHEATHED. HAD THERE BEEN CONTROVERSIAL PRESIDENTS? OH, YES, INDEED. THINK OF JOHN ADAMS AN THE ALIENIST SEDITION ACTS. THINK OF ANDREW JACKSON AND HENRY CLAY, WHERE PARTISAN — WERE PARTISAN PASSIONS OCCASIONALLY INFLAMED DURING THAT FIRST CENTURY IN OF COURSE.AND LEST THERE BE ANY DOUBT, THE RECALLLY CONGRESSES FULL WELL KNEW HOW TO SUMMON AN IMPEACHMENT TO THE FLOOR, INCLUDING AGAINST A MEMBER OF THIS BODY, SENATOR WILLIAM BLOUNT OF TENNESSEE. DURING THE JEFFERSON ADMINISTRATION, THE UNSUCCESSFUL IMPEACHMENT OF JUSTICE SAMUEL CHASE, A SURLY AND PARTIAL JURIST WHO WAS NONETHELESS ACQUITTED BY THIS CHAMBER, BECAME AN EARLY LANDMARK IN RETAINING THE TREASURED INDEPENDENCE OF OUR FEDERAL JUDICIARY. IT TOOK THE NATIONAL CONVULSION OF THE CIVIL WAR, THE ASSASSINATION OF MR. LINCOLN, AND THE COUNTER RECONSTRUCTION MEASURES AGGRESSIVELY PURSUED BY MR. LINCOLN’S SUCCESSOR ANDREW JOHNSON, TO BRING ABOUT THE NATION’S VERY FIRST PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT. FAMOUSLY, OF COURSE, YOUR PREDECESSORS IN THIS HIGH COURT OF IMPEACHMENT ACQUITTED THE UNPOPULAR AND CONTROVERSIAL JOHNSON BUT ONLY BY VIRTUE OF SENATORS FROM THE PARTY OF LINCOLN BREAKING RANKS.IT WAS OVER A CENTURY LATER THAT THE NATION RETURNED TO THE TUMULTUOUS WORLD OF PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT NECESSITATED BY THE RANK CRIMINALITY OF THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION. IN LIGHT OF THE RAPIDLY UNFOLDING FACTS, INCLUDING UNCOVERED BY THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE, AND AN OVERWHELMINGLY BIPARTISAN VOTE OF 410-4, THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AUTHORIZED AN IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY. AND IN 1974, THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, AFTER LENGTHY HEARINGS, VOTED AGAIN IN A BIPARTISAN MANNER TO IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.IMPORTANTLY, PRESIDENT NIXON’S OWN PARTY WAS SLOWLY BUT INEXORABLY MOVING TOWARD FAVORING THE REMOVAL OF THEIR CHOSEN LEADER FROM THE NATION’S HIGHEST OFFICE, WHO HAD JUST WON REELECTION BY A LANDSLIDE. IT BEARS EMPHASIS BEFORE THIS HIGH COURT, THIS WAS THE FIRST PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT IN OVER 100 YEARS. IT ALSO BEARS EMPHASIS, IT WAS POWERFULLY BIPARTISAN, AND IT WASN’T JUST THE VOTE TO AUTHORIZE THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY. INDEED, THE HOUSE JUDICIARY CHAIR, PETER RODINO OF NEW JERSEY, WAS INSISTENT THAT TO BE ACCEPTED BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THE PROCESS HAD TO BE BIPARTISAN LIKE WAR, IMPEACHMENT IS HELL — OR AT LEAST PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT IS HELL. THOSE OF US WHO LIVED THROUGH THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT, INCLUDING MEMBERS OF THIS BODY, FULL WELL UNDERSTAND THAT A PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT IS TANTAMOUNT TO DOMESTIC WAR, ALBEIT THANKFULLY PROTECTED BY OUR BELOVED FIRST AMENDMENT, A WAR OF WORDS AND A WAR OF IDEAS. BUT IT’S FILLED WITH ACRIMONY AND IT DIVIDES THE COUNTRY LIKE NOTHING ELSE.THOSE OF US WHO LIVED CLUE THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT UNDERSTAND THAT IN A DEEP AND PERSONAL WAY. NOW, IN CONTRAST, WISELY AND JUDICIARILY CONDUCTED, UNLIKE THE UNITED KINGDOM, IMPEACHMENT REMAINS A VITAL AND APPROPRIATE TOOL IN OUR COUNTRY TO SERVE AS A CHECK WITH RESPECT TO THE FEDERAL JUDICIARY. AFTER ALL, IN THE CONSTITUTION’S BRILLIANT STRUCTURAL DESIGN, FEDERAL JUDGES KNOW, AS THIS BODY FULL WELL KNOWS FROM ITS DAILY WORK, A PIVOTALLY IMPORTANT FEATURE — INDEPENDENCE FROM POLITICS, EXACTLY WHAT ALEXANDER HAMILTON WAS TALKING ABOUT IN FEDERALIST 78. DURING THE CONSTITUTION’S TERM, GOOD BEHAVIOR. AND IN PRACTICAL EFFECT, LIFE TENURE. IMPEACHMENT IS A PROTECTION FOR WE THE PEOPLE AGAINST WHAT COULD BE SERIOUS ARTICLE 3 WRONGDOING WITHIN THAT BRANCH. AND SO IT IS THAT WHEN YOU COUNT, OF THE 63 IMPEACHMENT INQUIRIES AUTHORIZED BY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OVER OUR HISTORY, ONLY EIGHT HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN CONVICTED IN THIS HIGH COURT AND REMOVED FROM OFFICE.AND EACH AND EVERY ONE HAS BEEN A FEDERAL JUDGE. THIS HISTORY LEADS ME TO REFLECT ON THE NATURE OF YOUR WEIGHTY RESPONSIBILITIES HERE IN THIS HIGH COURT AS JUDGES IN THE CONTEXT OF PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT. THE FOURTH PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT — I’M COUNTING THE NIXON PROCEEDINGS — IN OUR NATION’S HISTORY — BUT THE THIRD OVER THE PAST HALF-CENTURY, AND I RESPECTFULLY SUBMIT THAT THE SENATE IN ITS WISDOM WOULD DO WELL IN ITS DELIBERATIONS TO GUIDE THIS NATION IN THIS WORLD’S GREATEST DELIBERATIVE BODY TO RETURN TO OUR COUNTRY’S TRADITIONS WHEN PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT WAS TRULY A MEASURE OF LAST RESORT. MEMBERS OF THIS BODY CAN HELP AND IN THIS VERY PROCEEDING RESTORE OUR CONSTITUTIONAL AND HISTORICAL TRADITIONS. ABOVE ALL, BY RETURNING TO THE TEXT OF THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF.IT CAN DO SO BY ITS EXAMPLE HERE IN THESE PROCEEDINGS IN WEAVING THE TAPESTRY OF WHAT CAN RIGHTLY BE CALLED THE COMMON LAW OF PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT. THAT’S WHAT COURTS DO. THEY WEAVE THE COMMON LAW. THERE ARE INDICATIONS WITHIN THE CONSTITUTIONAL TEXT — I’LL COME TO OUR HISTORY — THAT THIS FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION IS APPROPRIATE TO BE ASKED — YOU’RE FAMILIAR WITH THE ARGUMENTS, WAS THERE A CRIME OR OTHER VIOLATION OF ESTABLISHED LAW ALLEGED? SO ITS TURNED TO THE TEXT. THROUGHOUT THE CONSTITUTION’S DESCRIPTION OF IMPEACHMENT, THE TEXT SPEAKS ALWAYS — ALWAYS — WITHOUT EXCEPTION IN TERMS OF CRIMES. IT BEGINS, OF COURSE, WITH TREASON, THE GREATEST OF CRIMES AGAINST THE STATE AND AGAINST WE THE PEOPLE. BUT SO MISUSED AS A BLUDGEON IN PARLIAMENTARY EXPERIENCES TO LEAD THE FOUNDERS TO ACTUALLY DEFINE THE TERM IN THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. BRIBERY — AN AN ANICK QUI IT IS FORM OF CORRUPTION AND THE BASIS OF SO MANY OF THE 43 IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDINGS OVER THE COARSE OF OUR HISTORY. AGAIN, ALMOST ALL OF THEM AGAINST JUDGES. AND THEN THE MYSTERIOUS TERMS, OTHER HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS.ONCE AGAIN, THE LANGUAGE IS EMPLOYING THE LANGUAGE OF CRIMES. THE CONSTITUTION IS SPEAKING TO US IN TERMS OF CRIMES. EACH OF THOSE REFERENCES, WHEN YOU COUNT THEM — COUNT SEVEN, COUNT EIGHT — SUPPORTS THE CONCLUSION THAT IMPEACHMENTS SHOULD BE EVALUATED IN TERMS OF OFFENSES AGAINST ESTABLISHED LAW BUT ESPECIALLY WITH RESPECT TO THE PRESIDENCY, FOR THE CONSTITUTION REQUIRES THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE UNITED STATES AND NOT A POLITICAL OFFICER, NO MATTER HOW HONEST, NO MATTER HOW IMPARTIAL, TO PRESIDE AT TRIAL.GUIDED BY HISTORY, THE FRAMERS MADE A DELIBERATE AND WISE CHOICE TO CABIN, TO CONSTRAIN, TO LIMIT THE POWER OF IMPEACHMENT. AND SO IT WAS ON THE VERY EVE OF THE IMPEACHMENT OF PRESIDENT ANDREW JOHNSON, THE EMINENT SCHOLAR AND DEAN OF THE COLUMBIA LAW SCHOOL, THEODORE DWIGHT, WROTE THIS THE — THE WEIGHT OF AUTHORITY IS THAT NO IMPEACHMENT WILL LIE EXCEPT FOR A TRUE CRIME, A BREACH OF THE LAW WHICH WOULD BE THE SUBJECT OF INDICTMENT.I’M NOT MAKING THAT ARGUMENT. I’M NOTING WHAT HE IS SAYING. HE DIDN’T OVER-ARGUE THE CASE. HE SAID, THE WEIGHT OF AUTHORITY. THE WEIGHT OF AUTHORITY. AND SO THIS ISSUE IS A WEIGHTY ONE. HAS THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, IN THESE TWO ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT CHARGED A CRIME OR VIOLATION OF ESTABLISHED LAW OR NOT? THIS IS — I DON’T WANT TO OVER-ARGUE — AN APPROPRIATE AND WEIGHTY CONSIDERATION FOR THE SENATE. BUT ESPECIALLY AS I’M TRYING TO EMPHASIZE IN THE CASE NOT OF A FEDERAL JUDGE BUT OF THE PRESIDENT. COURTS CONSIDER PRUDENTIAL FACTORS, AND THERE IS A HUGE PRUDENTIAL FACTOR THAT THIS TRIAL IS OCCURRING IN AN ELECTION YEAR. WHEN WE THE PEOPLE IN A MATTER OF MONTHS WILL GO TO THE POLLS. IN DEVELOPING THE COMMON LAW OF PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT, THIS THRESHOLD FACTOR, CONSISTENT WITH THE CONSTITUTIONAL TEXT, CONSISTENT WITH THE NATION’S HISTORY IN PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENTS, AS I’LL SEEK TO DEMONSTRATE, SERVES AS A CLARIFYING AND STABILIZING ELEMENT.IT INCREASES PREDICTABILITY. TO DO WHAT? TO REDUCE THE PROFOUND DANGER THAT A PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT WILL BE DOMINATED BY PARTISAN CONSIDERATIONS, PRECISELY THE EVIL THAT THE FRAMERS WARNED ABOUT. AND SO TO HISTORY — HISTORY BEARS OUT THE POINT. THE NATION’S MOST RECENT EXPERIENCE, THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT, EVEN THOUGH SEVERELY AND ROUNDLY CRITICIZED, CHARGED CRIMES. THESE ARE CRIMES PROVEN IN THE CRUCIBLE OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES DEBATE BEYOND ANY REASONABLE OBSERVER’S DOUBT. SO, TOO, THE NIXON IMPEACHMENT. THE ARTICLES CHARGED CRIMES. WHAT ABOUT ARTICLE TWO IN NIXON, WHICH IS SOMETIMES REFERRED TO AS ABUSE OF POWER? WAS THAT THE ABUSE OF POWER, THE PRECURSOR TO ARTICLE 1 THAT IS BEFORE THIS COURT? NOT AT ALL. WHEN ONE RETURNS TO ARTICLE 2 IN NIXON, APPROVED BY A BIPARTISAN HOUSE JUDICIARY, ARTICLE 2 OF NIXON SETS FORTH A DEEPLY TROUBLING STORY OF NUMEROUS CRIMES.NOT ONE, NOT TWO, NUMEROUS CRIMES CARRIED OUT AT THE DIRECTION OF THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF. AND SO THE APPROPRIATE QUESTION — WERE CRIMES ALLEGED IN THE ARTICLES IN THE COMMON LAW OF PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT IN NIXON? YES. IN CLINTON? YES. HERE? NO. A FACTOR TO BE CONSIDERED AS THE JUDGES IN THE HIGH COURT COME, AS YOU WILL, TO YOUR INDIVIDUAL JUDGMENT. EVEN IN THE POLITICAL CALDRON OF THE ANDREW JOHNSON IMPEACHMENT, ARTICLE 11 CHARGED A VIOLATION OF THE CONTROVERSIAL TENURE OF OFFICE ACT — YOU’RE FAMILIAR WITH IT — AND THAT ACT WARNED EXPRESSLY THE OVAL OFFICE THAT ITS VIOLATION WOULD CONSTITUTE A HIGH MISDEMEANOR, EMPLOYING THE VERY LANGUAGE OF CONSTITUTIONALLYCOGNIZABLE CRIMES.THIS HISTORY REPRESENTS — AND I BELIEVE MAY IT PLEASE THE COURT — IT EMBODIES THE COMMON LAW OF PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT. THESE ARE FACTS GLEANED FROM THE CONSTITUTIONAL TEXT AND FROM THE GLOSS OF THE NATION’S HISTORY. UNDER THIS VIEW, THE COMMISSION OF AN ALLEGED CRIME OR VIOLATION OF ESTABLISHED LAW CAN APPROPRIATELY BE CONSIDERED AGAIN A WEIGHTY AND AN IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION AND ELEMENT OF A HISTORICALLY SUPPORTABLE PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT. WILL LAW PROFESSORS AGREE WITH THIS? NO. BUT WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO THE ACADEMY, THIS IS NOT AN ACADEMIC GATHERING. WE ARE IN COURT. WE’RE NOT JUST IN COURT, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT THE CHIEF JUSTICE AND THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES, WE’RE IN DEMOCRACY’S ULTIMATE COURT. AND THE BETTER CONSTITUTIONAL ANSWER TO THE QUESTION IS PROVIDED BY A RIGOROUS AND FAITHFUL EXAMINATION OF A CONSTITUTIONAL TEXT AND THEN LOOKING FAITHFULLY AND RESPECTFULLY TO OUR HISTORY.THE VERY DIVISIVE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT DEMONSTRATES THAT WHILE HIGHLY RELEVANT, THE COMMISSION OF A CRIME IS BY NO MEANS SUFFICIENT TO WARRANT THE REMOVAL OF OUR DULY ELECTED PRESIDENT. WHY? THIS BODY KNOWS. WE APPOINT JUDGES AND YOU CONFIRM THEM AND THEY’RE THERE FOR LIFE. NOT PRESIDENTS. AND THE PRESIDENCY IS UNIQUE. THE PRESIDENCY STANDS ALONE IN OUR CONSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK. BEFORE HE BECAME THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE UNITED STATES, JOHN MARSHALL THEN SITTING AS A MEMBER OF THE PEOPLE’S HOUSE, MADE A SPEECH ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE AND THERE HE SAID THIS. THE PRESIDENT IS THE SOLE ORGAN OF THE NATION AND ITS EXTERNAL RELATIONS. AND ITS SOLE REPRESENTATIVE WITH FOREIGN NATIONS. IF THAT SOUNDS LIKE HYPERBOLE, IT HAS BEEN EMBRACED OVER DECADES BY THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES, BY JUSTICES APPOINTED BY MANY DIFFERENT PRESIDENTS. THE PRESIDENCY IS UNIQUE. THERE IS NO OTHER SYSTEM QUITE LIKE OURS. AND IT HAS SERVED US WELL. AND SO AS TO THE PRESIDENCY, IMPEACHMENT AND REMOVAL NOT ONLY OVERTURNS A NATIONAL ELECTION AND PERHAPS PROFOUNDLY AFFECTS AND UPCOMING ELECTION, IN THE WORDS OF YEAL’S — YALE’S AKEEL AMAR — AND THESE ARE HIS PORDS — PRFERS MARS’ WORD, GRAVE DISRUPTION OF THE GOVERNMENT.PROFESSOR MAR PENNED THOSE WORDS IN THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT. GRAVE DISRUPTION OF THE GOVERNMENT. REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE PRESIDENT HAS DONE, GRAVE DISRUPTION. WE WILL ALL AGREE THAT THE PRESIDENTS UNDER THE TEXT OF THE CONSTITUTION AND ITS AMENDMENTS ARE TO SERVE OUT THEIR TERM ABSENT A GENUINE NATIONAL CONSENSUS REFLECTED BY THE TWO-THIRDS MAJORITY REQUIREMENT OF THIS COURT THAT THE PRESIDENT MUST GO AWAY.TWO-THIRDS. IN POLITICS AND IN IMPEACHMENT, THAT’S CALLED A LANDSLIDE. HERE I RESPECTFULLY SUBMIT TO THE COURT THAT ALL FAIR MINDED PERSONS WILL SURELY AGREE THERE IS NO NATIONAL CONSENSUS. WE MIGHT WISH FOR ONE, BUT THERE ISN’T. TO THE CONTRARY, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN AMERICA’S MODERN HISTORY, NOT A SINGLE HOUSE MEMBER OF THE PRESIDENT’S PARTY SUPPORTED EITHER OF THE TWO ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT, NOT ONE. NOT IN COMMITTEE, NOT ON THE HOUSE FLOOR, AND THAT PIVOTAL FACT PUTS IN BOLD RELIEF THE PETER RADINO PRINCIPLE, CALL IT THE RADINO RULE. IMPEACHMENT MUST BE BIPARTISAN IN NATURE. AGAIN SITTING AS A COURT, THIS BODY SHOULD SIGNAL TO THE NATION THE RETURN TO OUR TRADITIONS, BIPARTISAN IMPEACHMENTS. WHAT’S THE ALTERNATIVE? WILL THE PRESIDENT BE KING? DO OVERSIGHT. THE TRADITION OF OVERSIGHT. AN ENORMOUS CHECK ON PRESIDENTIAL POWER THROUGHOUT OUR HISTORY AND IT CONTINUES AVAILABLE TODAY. IN IRAN-CONTRA, NO IMPEACHMENT WAS UNDERTAKEN.THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, A DEMOCRAT, JIM WRIGHT FROM TEXAS, FROM FORT WORTH WHERE THE WEST BEGINS, KNEW BETTER. HE SAID NO. BUT AS BEFITS THE AGE OF IMPEACHMENT, A HOUSE RESOLUTION TO IMPEACH PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN WAS INTRODUCED. IT WAS FILED. AND THE EFFORT TO IMPEACH PRESIDENT REAGAN WAS SUPPORTED BY A LEADING LAW PROFESSOR WHOSE NAME YOU WOULD WELL RECOGNIZE AS YOU’LL HEAR IT AGAIN THIS EVENING FROM PROFESSOR DERSHOWITZ.I’LL LEAVE IT TO HIM TO IDENTIFY THE LEARNED PROFESSOR. BUT THE SPEAKER OF THE PEOPLE’S HOUSE ECHOING PETER RADINO SAID NO. SO I RESPECTFULLY SUBMIT THAT THE SENATE SHOULD CLOSE THIS CHAPTER, THIS ID SACRATIC CHAPTER ON THIS DISRUPTIVE ACT, THIS AGE OF RESORT TO THE CONSTITUTION’S ULTIMATE DEMOCRATIC WEAPON FOR THE PRESIDENCY. LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE. THERE IS A GREAT JUSTICE WHO SAT FOR 30 YEARS, JUSTICE JOHN HARLIN, THE MID-CENTURY OF THE 20th CENTURY. AND IN A LAWSUIT INVOLVING A VERY BASIC QUESTION A CITIZEN’S WHOSE RIGHTS HAVE CLEARLY BEEN VIOLATED BY FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES AND AGENTS BRING AN ACTION FOR DAMAGES. WHEN CONGRESS HAS NOT SO PROVIDED NO LAW THAT GAVE THE WOUNDED CITIZEN A RIGHT TO REDRESS THROUGH DAMAGES.AND JUSTICE HARLIN IN A MAGNIFICENT OPINION IN BIVONS V. SIX UNNAMED FEDERAL AGENTS SUGGESTED THAT COURTS — HERE YOU ARE — SHOULD TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION IN REACHING ITS JUDGMENT, THEIR JUDGMENT, WHAT HE CALLED FACTORS COUNSELING RESTRAINT. HE WAS SOMEWHAT RELUCTANT TO SAY THAT WE, THE SUPREME COURT, SHOULD GRANT THIS RIGHT, WE SHOULD CREATE IT WHEN CONGRESS HAS ENACTED AND CONGRESS COULD HAVE ACTED BUT IT HADN’T. BUT HE RELUCTANTLY CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF EMPOWERED THE FEDERAL COURTS TO CREATE THIS RIGHT FOR OUR INJURED CITIZENS, TO GIVE THEM REDRESS, NOT JUST AN INJUNCTIVE RELIEF BUT DAMAGES, MONEY RECOVERY FOR VIOLATIONS OF THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. FACTORS COUNSELING RESTRAIN, AND HE ADDRESSED HIM. HE WAS SO HONEST AND SAID, I CAME TO THE CASE WITH A DIFFERENT VIEW BUT I CHANGED MY MIND. AND VOTED IN FAVOR OF THE BIVONS FAMILY HAVING REDRESS AGAINST THE FEDERAL AGENTS WHO HAD VIOLATED THEIR RIGHTS.JUDGING IN ITS MOST IMPARTIAL ELEGANCE SENSE. I’M GOING TO DRAW FROM JUSTICE HARLAN’S MATRIX OF FACTORS OF RESTRAINT AND SIMPLY IDENTIFY THESE. I THINK THERE MAY BE OTHERS. THE ARTICLES DO NOT CHARGE A CRIME FOR VIOLATION OF ESTABLISHED LAW. I’M SUGGESTING IT’S A RELEVANT FACTOR. I THINK IT’S A WEIGHTY FACTOR. WHEN WE COME TO PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT, NOT JUDICIAL IMPEACHMENT. SECONDLY, THE ARTICLES COME TO YOU WITH NO BIPARTISAN SUPPORT. THEY COME TO YOU AS A VIOLATION OF WHAT I’M DUBBING THE RODINO RULE. AND THIRD AS I WILL NOW DISCUSS, THE PIVOTALLY IMPORTANT ISSUE OF PROCESS, THE SECOND ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT, OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS. THIS COURT IS VERY FAMILIAR WITH UNITED STATES V. NIXON. ITS UNANIMITY IN RECOGNIZING THE PRESIDENT’S PROFOUND INTEREST IN CONFIDENTIALITY, REGARDLESS OF THE WORLD VIEW OR PHILOSOPHY OF THE JUSTICE, THE JUSTICES WERE UNANIMOUS. THIS ISN’T JUST A CONTRIVEANCE.IT’S BUILT INTO THE VERY NATURE OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER. SO LET ME COMMENT BRIEFLY. THIS CONSTITUTIONALLY BASED RECOGNITION OF EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE AND THEN COMPANION PRIVILEGES, THE DELIBERATIVE PROCESS PRIVILEGE, THE IMMUNITY OF CLOSE PRESIDENTIAL ADVISORS FROM BEING SUMMONED TO TESTIFY, THESE ARE ALL FIRMLY ESTABLISHED IN OUR LAW. IF THERE IS A DISPUTE BETWEEN THE PEOPLE’S HOUSE AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OVER THE AVAILABILITY OF DOCUMENTS OR WITNESSES AND THERE IS IN EACH AND EVERY ADMINISTRATION, THEN GO TO COURT.IT REALLY IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT. I DON’T NEED TO BELABOR THE POINT. BUT HERE’S THE POINT I’D LIKE TO EMPHASIZE. FREQUENTLY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ADVISES THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES THAT THE PROTECTION OF THE PRESIDENCY CALLS. WHATEVER THE PRESIDENT MIGHT WANT TO DO AS A POLITICAL MATTER, AS AN ACCOMMODATION IN THE SPIRIT OF COMITY, TO PROTECT PRIVILEGED CONVERSATIONS AND COMMUNICATIONS. I’VE HEARD IT IN MY TWO TOURS OF DUTY AT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. DON’T RELEASE THE DOCUMENTS, MR. PRESIDENT. IF YOU DO, YOU’RE INJURING THE PRESIDENCY. GO TO COURT. WE’VE HEARD CONCERNS ABOUT THE LENGTH OF TIME THAT THE LITIGATION MIGHT TAKE. THOSE OF US WHO HAVE LITIGATED KNOW THAT SOMETIMES LITIGATION DOES TAKE LONGER THAN WE WOULD LIKE. JUSTICE DELAYED IS JUSTICE DENIED. WE WOULD ALL AGREE WITH THAT. BUT OUR HISTORY, CHURCHILL’S MAXIM STUDY HISTORY. OUR HISTORY TELLS US THAT’S NOT NECESSARILY SO. TAKE BY WAY OF EXAMPLE THE PENTAGON PAPERS CASE. ORDERS ISSUED PREVENTING AND SANCTIONING A GROSS VIOLATION OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT’S GUARANTEE OF FREEDOM OF THE PRESS. AN ORDER ISSUED OUT OF THE DISTRICT COURT JUNE 15, 1971. THAT ORDER WAS REVERSED IN AN OPINION BY THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES TWO WEEKS LATER.JUNE 15. THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES COULD HAVE FOLLOWED THAT WELL-TRODDEN PATH. IT COULD HAVE SOUGHT EXPEDITION. THE COURTHOUSE IS SIX BLOCKS DOWN. THE JUDGES ARE THERE. THEY’RE ALL VERY ABLE. THEY’RE HARDWORKING, PEOPLE OF INTEGRITY. FOLLOW THE PATH. FOLLOW THE PATH OF THE LAW. GO TO COURT. THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN AT LEAST ONE PROBLEM HAD THE HOUSE SEEN FIT TO GO TO COURT AND REMAIN IN COURT. THE ISSUE IS BEFORE YOU. BUT AMONG OTHER FLAWS, THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL DETERMINED — AND I’VE READ THE OPINION AND I BELIEVE IT’S CORRECT — THAT WITH ALL RESPECT, ALL HOUSE SUBPOENAED ISSUED PRIOR TO THE ADOPTION OF THE HOUSE RESOLUTION 660 WHICH FOR THE FIRST TIME AUTHORIZED THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY AS A HOUSE, ALL SUBPOENAS WERE INVALID.THEY WERE VOID. WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, ALL OF HER ABILITIES AND HER VAST EXPERIENCE, UNDER OUR CONSTITUTION, SHE WAS POWERLESS TO DO WHAT SHE PURPORTED TO DO. AS HAS BEEN SAID NOW TIME AND AGAIN, ESPECIALLY THROUGHOUT THE FALL, THE CONSTITUTION DOES ENTRUST THE SOLE POWER OF IMPEACHMENT TO THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. BUT THAT’S THE HOUSE. IT’S 435 MEMBERS ELECTED FROM ACROSS THE CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC. NOT ONE, NO MATTER HOW ABLE SHE MAY BE. IN THE PEOPLE’S HOUSE, EVERY CONGRESSPERSON GETS A VOTE.WE KNOW THE CONCEPT. ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE. MORE GENERALLY, THE PRESIDENT AS I HAVE REVIEWED THE RECORD HAS CONSISTENTLY AND SCRUPULOUSLY FOLLOWED THE ADVICE AND COUNSEL OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, AND IN PARTICULAR THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL. HE HAS BEEN OBEDIENT. AS YOU KNOW, THAT IMPORTANT OFFICE, MANY OF YOU HAVE HAD YOUR OWN EXPERIENCES PROFESSIONALLY WITH THAT OFFICE, IS STAFFED WITH LAWYERS OF GREAT ABILITY. IT HAS A REPUTATION FOR SUPERB WORK. IT HAS DONE SUCH THOUGHTFUL WORK IN BOTH DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATIONS.THE OFFICE IS NOW HEADED BY A BRILLIANT LAWYER WHO SERVED AS A LAW CLERK TO JUSTICE ANTHONY KENNEDY. THE HOUSE MAY DISAGREE WITH THE GUIDANCE PROVIDED TO THE PRESIDENT BY THAT OFFICE. THE HOUSE FREQUENTLY DOES DISAGREE. BUT FOR THE PRESIDENT TO FOLLOW THE GUIDANCE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WITH RESPECT TO AN INTERBRANCH OF LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL DISPUTE CANNOT REASONABLY BE VIEWED AS AN OBSTRUCTION AND MOST EMPHATICALLY NOT AS AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE. HISTORY ONCE AGAIN IS A GREAT TEACHER. IN THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT, THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE REJECTED A DRAFT ARTICLE ASSERTING THAT PRESIDENT CLINTOE WORDS OF THE DRAFT ORDER — FRAUDULENTLY AND CORRUPTLY ASSERTED EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE. STRONG WORDS. FRAUDULENTLY AND CORRUPTLY. THAT WAS THE DRAFT ARTICLE. IN MY VIEW, HAVING LIVED THROUGH THE FACTS AND WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO THE FORMER PRESIDENT, HE DID. HE DID IT TIME AND AGAIN, MONTH AFTER MONTH. WE WOULD GO TO COURT. WE WOULD WIN. AND MANY MEMBERS — NOT EVERYBODY — ON THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE AGREED THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD INDEED IMPROPERLY CLAIMED EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE, REBUFFED TIME AND AGAIN BY THE JUDICIARY.BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THAT COMMITTEE CHAIRED THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE, CHAIRED BY HENRY HYDE, WISELY CONCLUDED THAT PRESIDENT CLINTON’S DOING SO SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE. HERE’S THE IDEA. IT IS NOT AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO DEFEND THE ASSERTED LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL PREROGATIVES OF THE PRESIDENCY. THIS IS — AND I’M QUOTING HERE FROM PAGE 55 OF THE PRESIDENT’S TRIAL BRIEF — A FUNCTION OF HIS CONSTITUTIONAL AND POLICY JUDGMENTS. THAT’S JUST A POLICY JUDGMENT BUT A CONSTITUTIONAL JUDGMENT. I WOULD GUIDE THIS COURT AS IT’S COMING THROUGH THE DELIBERATION PROCESS TO READ THAPTS TRIAL BRIEF WITH RESPECT TO PROCESS. IT WAS JUSTICE FELIX FRANKFURTER, CONFIDANT OF F.D.R., BRILLIANT JURIST, WHO REMINDED AMERICA THAT THE HISTORY OF LIBERTY IS IN LARGE MEASURE THE HISTORY OF PROCESS OF PROCEDURE. IN PARTICULAR, I WOULD GUIDE THE HIGH COURT TO THE DISCUSSION OF THE LONG HISTORY OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OVER TWO CENTURIES IN PROVIDING DUE PROCESS PROTECTIONS IN ITS IMPEACHMENT INVESTIGATIONS.IT’S A RICHLY HISTORICAL DISCUSSION. THE GOOD NEWS IS YOU CAN READ THE CORE OF IT IN FOUR PAGES, PAGES 62 TO 66 OF THE TRIAL BRIEF. IT PUTS IN BOLD RELIEF, I BELIEVE, AN IRREFUTABLE FACT. THIS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WITH ALL RESPECT, SAW FIT TO TURN ITS BACK ON ITS OWN ESTABLISHED PROCEDURES, PROCEDURES THAT HAVE BEEN FOLLOWED FAITHFULLY DECADE AFTER DECADE, REGARDLESS OF WHO WAS IN CONTROL, REGARDLESS OF POLITICAL PARTY. ALL THOSE PROCEDURES WERE TORN ASUNDER, AND ALL OVER THE VIGOROUS OBJECTIONS OF THE UNANIMOUS AND VOCAL MINORITY.I NEED NOT REMIND THIS HIGH COURT, THAT IN THIS COUNTRY, MINORITY RIGHTS ARE IMPORTANT. MINORITY RIGHTS SHOULD BE PROTECTED. EQUAL JUSTICE. BUT THEN AGAIN, THE HOUSE MEMBERS TOOK NO OATH TO BE IMPARTIAL. THE CONSTITUTION DIDN’T REQUIRE THEM TO SAY BY OATH OR AFFIRMATION THAT WE’LL DO IMPARTIAL JUSTICE. WHEN THEY CHOSE TO TEAR ASUNDER THEIR PROCEDURES, THEY WERE OATHLESS. THEY COULD TOSS OUT THEIR OWN RULE BOOK, RAW POWER. HERE WE HAVE TRAGICALLY FOR THE COUNTRY AND I BELIEVE TRAGICALLY FOR THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, IN ARTICLE 2 OF THESE IMPEACHMENT ARTICLES, A RUNAWAY HOUSE. IT IS — IT HAS RUN AWAY NOT ONLY FROM ITS LONG-STANDING PROCEDURES, IT HAS RUN AWAY FROM THE CONSTITUTION’S DEMAND OF FUNDAMENTAL FAIRNESS CAPTURED IN THOSE HALLOWED TERMS, DUE PROCESS OF LAW.WE CARED ABOUT THIS AS AN ENGLISH-SPEAKING PEOPLE SINCE MAGNA CARTA. BY DOING SO, HOWEVER, THE HOUSE HAS INADVERTENTLY POINTED THIS COURT TO AN EXIT RAMP. IT’S AN EXIT RAMP PROVIDED BY THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. IT’S AN EXIT RAMP BUILT BY THE MOST NOBLE OF BUILDERS, THE FOUNDING GENERATION. DESPITE THE CLEAREST PRECEDENT REQUIRING DUE PROCESS FOR THE ACCUSED AN IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY, BUT SURELY ALL THE MORE SO IN A PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT, HOUSE DEMOCRATS CHOSE TO CONDUCT A WHOLLY UNPRECEDENTED PROCESS IN THIS CASE, AND THEY DID SO KNOWINGLY AND DELIBERATELY BECAUSE THEY WERE WARNED AT EVERY TURN DON’T DO IT, DON’T DO IT THAT WAY. AND PROCESS. THE PRESIDENT BEING DENIED THE BASIC RIGHTS THAT HAVE BEEN AFFORDED TO EVERY SINGLE ACCUSED PRESIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF THE REPUBLIC, EVEN TO THE RACIST ANDREW JOHNSON, SEEKING TO UNDO MR.LINCOLN’S GREAT LEGACY. HE GOT THOSE RIGHTS, BUT NOT HERE. DUE PROCESS COULD HAVE BEEN HONORED, BASIC RIGHTS COULD HAVE BEEN HONORED. THE HOUSE RULES, THE HOUSE’S TRADITIONS COULD HAVE BEEN HONORED, BUT WHAT’S DONE IS DONE. THESE TWO ARTICLES COME BEFORE THIS COURT, THIS HIGH COURT OF IMPEACHMENT DRIPPING WITH FUNDAMENTAL PROCESS VIOLATIONS. WHEN COURTS — AND YOU ARE THE COURT — ARE CONFRONTED ARE THIS KIND OF PHENOMENON, A TRAIN OF FAIRNESS VIOLATIONS, COURTS IN THIS COUNTRY DO THE RIGHT THING. THEY DO IMPARTIAL JUSTICE. THEY INVOKE, FIGURATIVELY OR LITERALLY, THE WORDS OF THE PREAMBLE TO AMERICA’S CONSTITUTION. THE VERY FIRST ORDER OF OUR GOVERNMENT AFTER TO FORM A MORE PERFECT UNION IS TO ESTABLISH JUSTICE, TO ESTABLISH JUSTICE, EVEN BEFORE GETTING TO THE WORDS TO PROVIDE FOR THE COMMON DEFENSE TO PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE, TO ENSURE DOMESTIC TRANQUILITY.THE CONSTITUTION SPEAKS IN TERMS OF JUSTICE, ESTABLISHING JUSTICE. COURTS WOULD NOT ALLOW THIS. THEY WOULD NOT ALLOW THIS BECAUSE WHY? THEY KNEW AND THEY KNOW THAT THE PURPOSE OF OUR FOUNDING INSTRUMENT IS TO PROTECT OUR LIBERTIES, TO SAFEGUARD US, BUT TO SAFEGUARD US AS INDIVIDUALS AGAINST THE POWERS OF GOVERNMENT. AND WHY IN THE BENEFIT DICKTORY WORDS OF — BENEDICTORY WORDS OF THE PREAMBLE? TO SECURE THE BLESSINGS OF LIBERTY TO OURSELVES AND OUR POSTERITY. LIBERTY UNDER LAW. I THANK THE COURT. THE PRESIDING OFFICER: MR. SEKULOW. MR. SEKULOW: MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, HOUSE MANAGERS, JUDGE STARR LAID OUT BEFORE YOU THE SOLEMN NATURE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS. I WANT TO CONTRAST THE SOLEMN NATURE OF THESE PROCEEDINGS AND WHAT HAS BEEN LAID OUT BEFORE US FROM A BOTH HISTORICAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL PERSPECTIVE, AND I WANT YOU TO THINK ABOUT THIS THIS — THE HISTORY, THE IMPORTANCE, THE SOLEMNITIY OF WHAT WE ARE ENGAGED IN HERE IN THIS GREAT BODY WITH WHAT TOOK PLACE IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UPON THE SIGNING OF ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT.PENS DISTRIBUTED TO THE IMPEACHMENT MANAGERS. A CELEBRATORY MOMENT. THINK ABOUT THAT. THINK ABOUT THIS. A POIGNANT MOMENT. WE’RE NEXT GOING TO ADDRESS A FACTUAL ANALYSIS TO BRIEFLY REFLECT MY COLLEAGUE, THE DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL, MIKE RAPIRO WILL BE JOINING US IN A MOMENT TO DISCUSS MORE OF THE FACTS TO CONTINUE A DISCUSSION WE HAD ON SATURDAY, BUT LET ME JUST RECAP VERY QUICKLY WHAT WAS LAID OUT ON SATURDAY. FIRST, THE TRANSCRIPT SHOWS THAT THE PRESIDENT DID NOT CONDITION EITHER SECURITY ASSISTANCE OR A MEETING ON ANYTHING. THE CALL SECURITY FUNDS AREN’T EVEN — THE PAUSE OF SECURITY FUNDS AREN’T EVEN MENTIONED ON THE CALL. SECOND, PRESIDENT ZELENSKY AND OTHER UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS REPEATEDLY SAID THERE WAS NO QUID PRO QUO AND NO PRESSURE ON THEM TO REVIEW ANYTHING. THIRD, PRESIDENT ZELENSKY AND HIGH-RANKING UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS DID NOT EVEN KNOW THAT SECURITY ASSISTANCE WAS PAUSED UNTIL THE END OF AUGUST, OVER A MONTH AFTER THE JULY 25 CALL.FOURTH, NOT A SINGLE WITNESS TESTIFIED THAT THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF SAID THAT THERE WAS ANY WEX BETWEEN ANY INVESTIGATION AND SECURITY ASSISTANCE, A PRESIDENTIAL MEETING OR ANYTHING ELSE. FIFTH, THE SECURITY ASSISTANCE FLOWED ON SEPTEMBER 11, AND A PRESIDENTIAL MEETING TOOK PLACE ON SEPTEMBER 25 WITHOUT THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT, WITHOUT THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCING ANY INVESTIGATIONS. FINALLY, IN THE BLIND DRIVE TO IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT TRUMP IN REALITY STRATEGICALLY HAS BEEN THE BEST FRIEND AND SUPPORTER OF UKRAINE CERTAINLY IN OUR RECENT HISTORY. THESE ARE THE FACTS. THAT IS WHAT’S BEFORE YOU. DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL MIKE. MR. PURPURA: PRACTICE WILL NOW — MR. PURPURA WILL NOW ADDRESS AOFFICIAL FACTS RELATED TO THESE PROCEEDINGS. THANK YOU. MR. PURPURA: MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, GOOD AFTERNOON. MR. LEADER, I BELIEVE THAT WE WILL BE READY TO TAKE A BREAK AT THE CONCLUSION OF MY REMARKS, IF IT MEETS WITH YOUR APPROVAL. ON SATURDAY, WE WALKED THROUGH SOME OF THE EVIDENCE THAT THE HOUSE MANAGERS PUT FORWARD AND DIDN’T PUT FORWARD DURING THEIR 21-PLUS HOURS OF PRESENTATION. THE EVIDENCE THAT WE RECOUNTED WAS DRAWN DIRECTLY FROM THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ OWN RECORD, THE CASE THEY CHOSE TO SUBMIT TO THIS CHAMBER.TO ECHO MY COLLEAGUE, MR. SEKULOW, BRIEFLY THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ OWN EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DID NOT CONDITION ANYTHING ON INVESTIGATIONS DURING THE JULY 25 CALL WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY AND DID NOT EVEN MENTION THE PAUSED SECURITY ASSISTANCE ON THE CALL. PRESIDENT ZELENSKY SAID THAT HE FELT NO PRESSURE ON THE CALL. PRESIDENT ZELENSKY AND THE TOP UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS DID NOT LEARN OF THE PAUSE ON THE SECURITY ASSISTANCE UNTIL MORE THAN A MONTH AFTER THE JULY 25 CALL. AND THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ OWN RECORD, THEIR RECORD, THAT THEY DEVELOPED AND BROUGHT BEFORE THIS CHAMBER REFLECTS THAT ANYONE WHO SPOKE WITH THE PRESIDENT SAID THAT THE PRESIDENT MADE CLEAR THAT THERE WAS NO LINKAGE BETWEEN SECURITY ASSISTANCE AND INVESTIGATIONS. THERE’S ANOTHER CATEGORY OF EVIDENCE DEMONSTRATING THAT THE PAUSE ON SECURITY ASSISTANCE WAS DISTINCT AND UNRELATED TO INVESTIGATIONS. THE PRESIDENT RELEASED THE AID WITHOUT THE UKRAINIANS EVER ANNOUNCING ANY INVESTIGATIONS OR UNDERTAKING ANY INVESTIGATIONS. HERE IS AMBASSADOR SONDLAND. >> AND THE FACT IS THE AID WAS GIVEN TO UKRAINE WITHOUT ANY ANNOUNCEMENT OF NEW INVESTIGATIONS. >> THAT’S CORRECT. >> AND PRESIDENT TRUMP DID IN FACT MEET WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY IN SEPTEMBER AT THE UNITED NATIONS, CORRECT? >> HE DID.>> AND THERE WAS NO AANNOUNCEMENT OF INVESTIGATIONS BEFORE THAT MEETING? >> CORRECT. >> AND THERE WAS NO ANNOUNCE MANY OF INVESTIGATIONS AFTER THIS MEETING. >> THAT’S RIGHT. MR. PURPURA: SO WHILE THE SECURITY ASSISTANCE WAS PAUSED, THE ADMINISTRATION DID PRECISELY WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT. IT ADDRESSED PRESIDENT TRUMP’S CONCERNS ABOUT THE TWO ISSUES THAT I MENTIONED ON SATURDAY — BURDEN-SHARING AND CORRUPTION. A NUMBER OF LAW AND POLICYMAKERS ALSO CONTACTED THE PRESIDENT AND THE WHITE HOUSE TO PROVIDE INPUT ON THE SECURITY ASSISTANCE ISSUE DURING THIS PERIOD, INCLUDING SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM.THE PROCESS CULMINATED ON SEPTEMBER 11, 2019. ON THAT DAY, THE PRESIDENT SPOKE WITH VICE PRESIDENT PENCE AND SENATOR ROB PORTMAN. THE VICE PRESIDENT, IN TIM MORRISON’S WORDS, WAS ARMED WITH HIS CONVERSATION WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY AND BOTH THE VICE PRESIDENT AND SENATOR PORTMAN RELATED THEIR VIEW OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THE ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE AND CONVINCED THE PRESIDENT THAT THE AID SHOULD BE DISBURSED IMMEDIATELY. AFTER MEETING, PRESIDENT TRUMP TERMINATED THE PAUSE AND THE SUPPORT FLOWED TO UKRAINE. I WANT TO TAKE A STEP BACK NOW AND TALK FOR A MOMENT ABOUT WHY THE SECURITY ASSISTANCE WAS BRIEFLY PAUSED. AGAIN, IN THE WORDS OF THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ OWN WITNESSES. WITNESS AFTER WITNESS TESTIFIED THAT CONFRONTING UKRAINIAN CORRUPTION SHOULD BE AT THE FOREFRONT OF UNITED STATES FOREIGN POLICY TOWARD UKRAINE.THEY ALSO TESTIFIED THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD LONG-STANDING AND SINCERE CONCERNS ABOUT CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE. THE HOUSE MANAGERS, HOWEVER, TOLD YOU THAT IT WAS LAUGHABLE TO THINK THAT THE PRESIDENT CARED ABOUT CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE. BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT THE WITNESSES SAID ACCORDING TO AMBASSADOR VOLKER, PRESIDENT TRUMP DEMONSTRATED THAT HE HAD A VERY DEEPLY ROOTED NEGATIVE VIEW OF UKRAINE BASED ON PAST CORRUPTION, AND THAT’S A REASONABLE POSITION, ACCORDING TO AMBASSADOR VOLKER. MOST PEOPLE WHO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT UKRAINE WOULD THINK THAT. AND DR. HILL TESTIFIED, I THINK THE PRESIDENT HAS ACTUALLY QUITE PUBLICLY SAID THAT HE WAS VERY SKEPTICAL ABOUT CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE. AND, IN FACT, HE’S NOT ALONE. BECAUSE EVERYONE HAS EXPRESSED GREAT CONCERNS ABOUT CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE. THE HOUSE MANAGERS HAVE SAID THAT THE PRESIDENT’S CONCERN WITH CORRUPTION IS DISINGENUOUS.THEY SAID THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DIDN’T CARE ABOUT CORRUPTION IN 2017 OR 2018 AND HE CERTAINLY DIDN’T CARE ABOUT IT IN 2019. THAT WAS THEIR WORDS. NOT ACCORDING TO AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH, HOWEVER, WHO TESTIFIED THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SHARED HIS CONCERN ABOUT CORRUPTION DIRECTLY WITH PRESIDENT POROSHENKO, PRESIDENT ZELENSKY’S PREDECESSOR, IN THEIR FIRST MEETING IN THE OVAL OFFICE. WHEN WAS THAT MEETING? IN JUNE OF 2017. 2017. THE PRESIDENT ALSO HAS WELL-KNOWN CONCERNS ABOUT FOREIGN AID GENERALLY, SCRUTINIZING AND IN SOME CASES CURTAILING FOREIGN AID WAS A CENTRAL PLANK OF HIS CAMPAIGN PLATFORM. PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ESPECIALLY WARY OF SENDING AMERICAN TAXPAYER DOLLARS ABROAD WHEN OTHER COUNTRIES REFUSE TO PITCH IN.MR. MORRISON AND MR. HALE BOTH TESTIFIED AT LENGTH ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP’S LONG-STANDING CONCERN WITH BURDEN-SHARING IN FOREIGN AID PROGRAMS. HERE’S WHAT THEY SAID. >> THE PRESIDENT WAS CONCERNED THAT THE UNITED STATES SEEMED TO BEAR THE EXCLUSIVE BRUNT OF SECURITY ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE. HE WANTED TO SEE THE EUROPEANS STEP UP AND CONTRIBUTE MORE SECURITY ASSISTANCE. >> WE’VE OFTEN HEARD AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WANTS TO MAKE SURE THAT FOREIGN ASSISTANCE IS REVIEWED SCRUPULOUSLY TO MAKE SURE THAT IT’S TRULY IN U.S. NATIONAL INTERESTS AND THAT WE EVALUATED CONTINUE USUALLY, THAT IT MEETS CERTAIN CRITERIA THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS ESTABLISHED. >> AND HAS THE PRESIDENT EXPRESSED THAT HE SPECTORS OUR ALLIES TO GIVE THEIR FAIR SHARE OF AID AS EVIDENCED BY A POINT HE RAISED DURING THE JULY 25 CALL WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY TO THAT EFFECT? >> THE PRINCIPLE OF GREATER BURDEN-SHARING BY ALLIES AND OTHER LIKE-MINDED STATES IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF THE FOREIGN ASSISTANCE REVIEW.MR. PURPURA: THE PRESIDENT EXPRESSED THESE PRECISE CONCERNS TO SENATOR RON JOHNSON, WHO WROTE, HE REMINDED ME HOW THOROUGHLY CORRUPT UKRAINE WAS AND AGAIN CONVEYED HIS FRUSTRATION THAT EUROPE DOESN’T DO ITS FAIR SHARE OF PROVIDING MILITARY AID. THE HOUSE MANAGERS DIDN’T TELL YOU ABOUT THIS. WHY NOT? AND PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS RIGHT TO BE CONCERNED THAT OTHER COUNTRIES WEREN’T PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE. AS LAURA COOPER TESTIFIED, U.S. CONTRIBUTIONS TO UKRAINE ARE FAR MORE SIGNIFICANT THAN ANY INDIVIDUAL COUNTRY AND SHE ALSO SAID E.U. FUNDS TEND TO BE ON THE ECONOMIC SIDE RATHER THAN FOR DEFENSE AND SECURITY. SENATOR JOHNSON ALSO CONFIRMED THAT OTHER COUNTRIES REFUSED TO PROVIDE THE DEFENSIVE WEAPONS THAT UKRAINE NEEDS IN ITS WAR WITH RUSSIA.PLEASE KEEP IN MIND ALSO THAT THE PAUSE OF THE UKRAINE SECURITY ASSISTANCE PROGRAM WAS FAR FROM UNUSUAL OR OUT OF CHARACTER FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE KNOW THAT THE PRESIDENT IS SKEPTICAL OF FOREIGN AID AND THAT ONE OF HIS TOP CAMPAIGN PROMISES AND PRIORITIES IN OFFICE HAS BEEN TO AVOID WASTEFUL SPENDING OF AMERICAN TAXPAYER DOLLARS ABROAD. MEANWHILE, THE SAME PEOPLE WHO TODAY CLAIM THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS NOT GENUINELY CONCERNED ABOUT BURDEN-SHARING WERE UPSET WHEN, HAS A CANDIDATE, PRESIDENT TRUMP CRITICIZED FREE-RIDING BY NATO MEMBERS. THIS PAST SUMMER, THE ADMINISTRATION PAUSED, REVIEWED, AND IN SOME CASES CANCELED HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN FOREIGN AID TO AFGHANISTAN, EL SALVADOR, HONDURAS, GUATEMALA, AND LEBANON. AND THESE ARE JUST SOME OF THE REVIEWS OF FOREIGN AID UNDERTAKEN AT THE VERY SAME TIME THAT THE UKRAINE AID WAS PAUSED. SO WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE BRIEF PERIOD OF TIME WHILE THE UKRAINE SECURITY ASSISTANCE WAS PAUSED? PEOPLE WERE GATHERING INFORMATION AND MONITORING THE FACTS ON THE GROUND IN UKRAINE, AS THE NEW PARLIAMENT WAS SWORN IN AND BEGAN INTRODUCING ANTICORRUPTION LEGISLATION. NOTWITHSTANDING WHAT THE HOUSE MANAGERS WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE, THE REASON FOR THE PAUSE WAS NO SECRET WITHIN THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE AGENCIES.ACCORDING TO MR. MORRISON, IN A JULY MEETING ATTENDED BY OFFICIALS THROUGHOUT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AGENCIES, THE REASON PROVIDED FOR THE PAUSE BY A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET WAS THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS CONCERNED ABOUT CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE AND HE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT UKRAINE WAS DOING ENOUGH TO MANAGE THAT CORRUPTION. IN FACT, AS MR. MORRISON TESTIFIED, BY LABOR DAY, THERE HAD BEEN DEFINITIVE DEVELOPMENTS TO DEMONSTRATE THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKY WAS COMMITTED TO THE ISSUES HE CAMPAIGNED ON — ANTICORRUPTION REFORMS. MR. MORRISON ALSO TESTIFIED THAT THE ADMINISTRATION WAS WORKING ON ANSWERING THE PRESIDENT’S CONCERNS REGARDING BURDEN-SHARING. HERE’S MR. MORRISON. >> WAS THERE ANY INTERAGENCY ACTIVITY, WHETHER IT BE WITH THE STATE DEPARTMENT OR THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT,? COORDINATION BY THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNSEL TO LOOK INTO THAT FOR THE PRESIDENT? >> WE WERE SURVEYING THE DATA TO UNDERSTAND WHO WAS CONTRIBUTING WHAT AND SORT OF IN WHAT CATEGORIES.>> AND SO THE PRESIDENT EVINCED CONCERNS. THE INTERAGENCY TRIED TO ADDRESS THEM? >> YES. MR. PURPURA: HOW ELSE DO WE KNOW THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS AWAITING INFORMATION ON BURDEN-SHARING AND ANTICORRUPTION EFFORTS IN UKRAINE BEFORE RELEASING THE SECURITY ASSISTANCE? BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT VICE PRESIDENT PENCE TOLD PRESIDENT ZELENSKY. ON SEPTEMBER 1, 2019, VICE PRESIDENT PENCE MET WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY. PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS SCHEDULED TO ATTEND THE WORLD WAR II COMMEMORATION IN POLAND BUT INSTEAD REMAINED IN THE U.S. TO MANAGE THE EMERGENCY RESPONSE TO HURRICANE DORIAN.REMEMBER, THIS WAS THREE DAYS — THREE DAYS — AFTER PRESIDENT ZELENSKY LEARNED THROUGH THE POLITICAL ARTICLE — THE “POLITICO” ARTICLE ABOUT THE REVIEW OF THE SECURITY ASSISTANCE. JUST AS VICE PRESIDENT PENCE AND HIS AIDES ANTICIPATED, JENNIFER WILLIAMS TESTIFIED THAT ONCE THE CAMERAS LEFT THE ROOM, THE VERY FIRST QUESTION THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKY HAD WAS ABOUT THE STATUS OF THE SECURITY ASSISTANCE. THE VICE PRESIDENT RESPONDINGED BY ASKING ABOUT TWO THINGS — BURDEN-SHARING AND CORRUPTION. HERE’S HOW JENNIFER WILLIAMS DESCRIBED IT. THE V.P. RESPONDED BY REALLY EXPRESSING OUR ONGOING SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE, BUT WANTING TO HEAR FROM PRESIDENT ZELENSKY, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE STATUS OF HIS REFORM EFFORTS WERE THAT HE COULD THEN CONVEY BACK TO THE PRESIDENT AND ALSO WANTING TO HEAR IF THERE WAS MORE THAT EUROPEAN COUNTRIES COULD DO TO SUPPORT UKRAINE.VICE PRESIDENT PENCE KNOWS PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND HE KNEW WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTED TO HEAR FROM PRESIDENT ZELENSKY. THE VICE PRESIDENT WAS ECHOING THE PRESIDENT’S TWO RECURRING THEMES — CORRUPTION AND BURDEN-SHARING. IT’S THE SAME CONSISTENT THEMES EVERY TIME. AMBASSADOR TAYLOR RECEIVED A SIMILAR READOUT OF THE MEETING BETWEEN THE VICE PRESIDENT AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKY, INCLUDING THE VICE PRESIDENT’S FOCUS ON CORRUPTION AND BURDEN-SHARING. HERE’S AMBASSADOR TAYLOR. >> ON THE EVENING OF SEPTEMBER 1 I RECEIVED READOUT OF THE PENCE-ZELENSKY MEETING OVER THE PHONE FROM MR.MORRISON DURING WHICH HE TOLD THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKY HAD OPENED THE MEETING BY IMMEDIATELY ASKING VICE PRESIDENT ABOUT THE SECURITY COOPERATION. THE VICE PRESIDENT DID NOT RECEIVE SUBSTANTIVELY BUT SAID THAT HE WOULD TALK TO PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT NIGHT. THE VICE PRESIDENT DID SAY THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTED THE EUROPEANS TO DO MORE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE AND THAT HE WANTED THE UKRAINIANS TO DO MORE TO FIGHT CORRUPTION. MR. PURPURA: ON SEPTEMBER 11, BASED ON THE INFORMATION COLLECTED AND PRESENTED TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, THE PRESIDENT LIFTED THE PAUSE ON THE SECURITY ASSISTANCE. AS MR. MORRISON EXPLAINED, OUR PROCESS GAVE THE PRESIDENT THE CONFIDENCE HE NEEDED TO APPROVE THE RELEASE OF THE SECURITY SECTOR ASSISTANCE. THE HOUSE MANAGERS SAY THAT THE TALK ABOUT CORRUPTION AND BURDEN SHARING IS A RUSE. NO ONE KNEW WHAT IT WAS PAUSED AND NO ONE WAS ADDRESSING THE PRESIDENT’S CONCERNS WITH UKRANIAN CORRUPTION AND BURDEN SHARING. THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ OWN EVIDENCE, THEIR OWN RECORD TELLS A DIFFERENT STORY, HOWEVER. THEY DIDN’T TELL YOU ABOUT THIS. NOT IN 21 HOURS. WHY NOT? THE PRESIDENT’S CONCERNS WERE ADDRESSED IN THE ORDINARY COURSE.THE PRESIDENT WASN’T CAUGHT, AS THE HOUSE MANAGERS ALLEGE. THE MANAGERS ARE WRONG. ALL OF THIS TOGETHER WITH WHAT WE DISCUSSED ON SATURDAY DEMONSTRATES THAT THERE WAS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN SECURITY ASSISTANCE AND INVESTIGATIONS. WHEN THE HOUSE MANAGERS REALIZED THAT THEIR QUID PRO QUO THEORY ON SECURITY ASSISTANCE WAS FALLING APART, THEY CREATED A SECOND ALTERNATIVE THEORY. ACCORDING TO THE HOUSE MANAGERS, PRESIDENT ZELENSKY DESPERATELY WANTED A MEETING AT THE WHITE HOUSE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT TRUMP CONDITIONED THAT MEETING ON INVESTIGATIONS. SO WHAT ABOUT THE MANAGERS’ BACKUP ACCUSATIONS? DO THEY FAIR ANY BETTER THAN THEIR QUID PRO QUO FOR SECURITY ASSISTANCE? NO. NO, THEY DON’T. A PRESIDENTIAL LEVEL MEETING HAPPENED WITHOUT ANY PRECONDITIONS AT THE FIRST AVAILABLE OPPORTUNITY IN A WIDELY TELEVISED MEETING AT THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN NEW YORK ON SEPTEMBER 25, 2019. THE WHITE HOUSE WAS WORKING TO SCHEDULE THE MEETING EARLIER AT THE WHITE HOUSE OR IN WARSAW, BUT THOSE OPTIONS FELL THROUGH DUE TO NORMAL SCHEDULING AND A HURRICANE. THE TWO PRESIDENTS MET AT THE EARLIEST CONVENIENCE WITHOUT PRESIDENT ZELENSKY EVER ANNOUNCING OR BEGINNING ANY INVESTIGATIONS. THE FIRST THING TO KNOW ABOUT THE ALLEGED QUID PRO QUO FOR A MEETING IS THAT BY THE END OF THE JULY 25 CALL, THE PRESIDENT HAD INVITED PRESIDENT ZELENSKY TO THE WHITE HOUSE ON THREE SEPARATE OCCASIONS EACH TIME WITHOUT ANY PRECONDITIONS.PRESIDENT TRUMP INVITED PRESIDENT ZELENSKY TO AN IN-PERSON MEETING ON THEIR INITIAL APRIL 21 CALL. WHEN YOU’RE SETTLED IN AND READY, I’D LIKE TO INVITE YOU TO THE WHITE HOUSE. ON MAY 29, THE WEEK AFTER PRESIDENT ZELENSKY’S INAUGURATION, PRESIDENT TRUMP SENT A CONGRATULATORY LETTER AGAIN INVITING PRESIDENT ZELENSKY TO THE WHITE HOUSE. AS YOU PREPARE TO ADDRESS THE MANY CHALLENGES FACING UKRAINE, PLEASE KNOW THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE WITH YOU AND ARE COMMITTED TO HELPING UKRAINE REALIZE ITS VAST POTENTIAL.TO HELP SHOW THAT COMMITMENT, I WOULD LIKE TO INVITE YOU TO MEET WITH ME AT THE WHITE HOUSE IN WASHINGTON, D.C. AS SOON AS WE CAN FIND A MUTUALLY CONVENIENT TIME. THEN ON JULY 25, PRESIDENT TRUMP PERSONALLY INVITED PRESIDENT ZELENSKY TO PARTICIPATE IN A MEETING FOR A THIRD TIME. WHENEVER YOU WOULD LIKE TO COME TO THE WHITE HOUSE, FEEL FREE TO CALL. GIVE US A DATE, AND WE’LL WORK THAT OUT. I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU. THAT’S THREE SEPARATE INVITATIONS FOR A MEETING ALL MADE WITHOUT ANY PRECONDITIONS. DURING THIS TIME AND BEHIND THE SCENES, THE WHITE HOUSE WAS WORKING DILIGENTLY TO SCHEDULE A MEETING IT THE PRESIDENTS AT THE EARLIEST POSSIBLE DATE. TIM MORRISON WHOSE RESPONSIBILITIES INCLUDED HELPING ARRANGE HEAD OF STATE MEETINGS TO THE WHITE HOUSE OR OTHER STATE MEETINGS TESTIFIED THAT HE UNDERSTOOD THAT ARRANGING THE WHITE HOUSE MEETING WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY WAS A DO-OUT THAT CAME FROM THE PRESIDENT.THE HOUSE MANAGERS DIDN’T MENTION THE WORK THAT THE WHITE HOUSE WAS DOING TO SCHEDULE THE MEETING BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKY, DID THEY? WHY NOT? SCHEDULING A PRESIDENTIAL MEETING TAKES TIME. MR. MORRISON TESTIFIED THAT HIS DIRECTORATE WHICH WAS JUST ONE OF SEVERAL HAD A DOZEN SCHEDULE REQUESTS IN WITH THE PRESIDENT FOR MEETINGS WITH FOREIGN LEADERS THAT WE WERE LOOKING TO LAND AND UKRAINE WAS BUT ONE OF THOSE REQUESTS. DUE TO BOTH PRESIDENTS’ BUSY SCHEDULES ACCORDING TO MR. MORRISON, IT BECAME CLEAR THAT THE EARLIEST OPPORTUNITY FOR THE TWO PRESIDENTS TO MEET WOULD BE IN WARSAW AT THE BEGINNING OF SEPTEMBER. THE ENTIRE NOTION THAT A BILATERAL MEETING BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKY WAS SOMEHOW CONDITIONED ON A STATEMENT ABOUT INVESTIGATIONS IS COMPLETELY DEFEATED BY ONE STRAIGHTFORWARD FACT. A BILATERAL MEETING BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKY WAS PLANNED FOR SEPTEMBER 1 IN WARSAW. THE SAME WARSAW MEETING WE WERE JUST DISCUSSING WITHOUT THE UKRANIANS SAYING A WORD ABOUT INVESTIGATIONS. AS IT TURNED OUT, PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS NOT ABLE TO ATTEND THE MEETING IN WARSAW BECAUSE OF HURRICANE DORIAN.PRESIDENT TRUMP ASKED VICE PRESIDENT PENCE TO ATTEND IN HIS PLACE. BUT EVEN THAT SCHEDULING GLITCH DID NOT PUT OFF THEIR MEETING FOR LONG. PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKY MET AT THE NEXT AVAILABLE DATE, SEPTEMBER 25 ON THE SIDELINES OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY. AS PRESIDENT ZELENSKY HIMSELF HAS SAID, THERE WERE NO PRECONDITIONS FOR HIS MEETING WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP. THOSE ARE HIS WORDS, NO CONDITIONS.SO YOU’RE PROBABLY WONDERING HOW COULD THE HOUSE MANAGERS CLAIM THAT THERE WAS A QUID PRO QUO FOR A MEETING WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP WHEN THE TWO PRESIDENTS ACTUALLY DID MEET WITHOUT PRESIDENT ZELENSKY ANNOUNCING ANY INVESTIGATIONS. WELL, THE HOUSE MANAGERS MOVED THE GOALPOST AGAIN. THEY CLAIMED THAT THE MEETING COULDN’T BE JUST AN IN-PERSON MEETING WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP. WHAT IT HAD TO BE WAS A MEETING AT THE OVAL OFFICE AND IN THE WHITE HOUSE. THAT’S NONSENSE. PUTTING TO ONE SIDE THE ABSURDITY OF THE HOUSE MANAGERS TRYING TO REMOVE A DULY ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES FROM OFFICE BECAUSE HE MET A WORLD LEADER IN ONE LOCATION VERSUS ANOTHER, THIS THEORY HAS NO BASIS IN FACT. AS DR. HILL TESTIFIED, WHAT MATTERED WAS THERE WAS A B LATERAL PRESIDENTIAL MEETING, NOT THE LOCATION OF THE MEETING. SHE SAID, IT WASN’T ALWAYS A WHITE HOUSE MEETING PER SAY, BUT DEFINITELY A PRESIDENTIAL-LEVEL, YOU KNOW, MEETING WITH ZELENSKY AND THE PRESIDENT. I MEAN, IT COULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN POLAND IN WARSAW. IT COULD HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, A PROPER BILATERAL IN SOME OTHER CONTEXT BUT IN OTHER WORDS, A WHITE HOUSE LEVEL PRESIDENTIAL MEETING.THE HOUSE MANAGERS DIDN’T TELL YOU ABOUT DR. HILL’S TESTIMONY. WHY NOT? IN FACT, THEY SAID JUST LAST WEEK THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKY STILL HASN’T GOTTEN HIS WHITE HOUSE MEETING. WHY DIDN’T THEY TELL YOU ABOUT DR. HILL’S TESTIMONY? SO YOU WOULD HAVE THE FULL CONTEXT AND INFORMATION. THEY SPOKE FOR OVER 21 HOURS. THEY COULDN’T TAKE A COUPLE OF MINUTES TO GIVE YOU THAT CONTEXT? HOW ELSE DO WE KNOW THAT DR. HILL WAS RIGHT? BECAUSE PRESIDENT ZELENSKY SAID SO ON THE JULY 25 CALL. REMEMBER WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP INVITED PRESIDENT ZELENSKY TO WASHINGTON ON THE JULY 25 CALL, PRESIDENT ZELENSKY SAID HE WOULD BE HAPPY TO MEET WITH YOU PERSONALLY AND OFFERED TO HOST PRESIDENT TRUMP IN UKRAINE OR ON THE OTHER HAND, MEET WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP ON SEPTEMBER 1 IN POLAND. THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION PLANNED TO DO. IF IT WEREN’T FOR HURRICANE DORIAN, PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD HAVE MET WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY IN POLAND ON SEPTEMBER 1 JUST AS PRESIDENT ZELENSKY HAD REQUESTED AND WITHOUT ANY PRECONDITIONS. AS IT HAPPENED, PRESIDENT ZELENSKY MET WITH THE VICE PRESIDENT INSTEAD AND JUST A FEW WEEKS LATER MET WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP IN NEW YORK, ALL WITHOUT ANYONE MAKING ANY STATEMENT ABOUT ANY INVESTIGATIONS.AND ONCE AGAIN, NOT A SINGLE WITNESS IN THE HOUSE RECORD THAT THEY COMPILED AND DEVELOPED UNDER THEIR PROCEDURES THAT WE’VE DISCUSSED AND WILL CONTINUE TO DISCUSS PROVIDED ANY FIRSTHAND EVIDENCE THAT THE PRESIDENT EVER LINKED A PRESIDENTIAL MEETING TO ANY INVESTIGATIONS. THE HOUSE MANAGERS HAVE SEIZED UPON AMBASSADOR SONDLAND’S CLAIM THAT MR. GIULIANI’S REQUESTS WERE A QUID PRO QUO FOR ARRANGING A WHITE HOUSE VISIT FOR PRESIDENT ZELENSKY. BUT AGAIN, AMBASSADOR SONDLAND WAS ONLY GUESSING BASED ON INCOMPLETE INFORMATION. HE TESTIFIED THAT THE PRESIDENT NEVER TOLD HIM THAT THERE WAS ANY SORT OF A CONDITION FOR A MEETING WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY.WHY THEN DID HE THINK THERE WAS ONE? IN HIS OWN WORDS, BAFORTD SONDLAND SAID — AMBASSADOR SONDLAND SAID HE COULD ONLY REPEAT WHAT HE HEARD THROUGH AMBASSADOR VOLKER FROM GIULIANI. SO HE DIDN’T EVEN HEAR FROM MR. GIULIANI HIMSELF. BUT AMBASSADOR VOLKER WHO IS THE SUPPOSED LINK BETWEEN MR. GIULIANI AND AMBASSADOR SONDLAND THOUGHT NO SUCH THING. AMBASSADOR VOLKER TESTIFIED UNEQUIVOCALLY THAT THERE WAS NO LINKAGE BETWEEN THE MEETING WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY AND UKRANIAN INVESTIGATIONS. I’M GOING TO READ THE FULL QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS BECAUSE THIS PASSAGE IS KEY. THIS IS FROM AMBASSADOR VOLKER’S DEPOSITION TESTIMONY. QUESTION, DID PRESIDENT TRUMP EVER WITHHOLD A MEETING WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY OR DELAY A MEETING WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY UNTIL THE UKRANIANS COMMITTED TO INVESTIGATE THE ALLEGATIONS THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED CONCERNING THE 2016 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION? ANSWER, THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION IS NO, IF YOU WANT A YES OR NO ANSWER, BUT THE REASON THE ANSWER IS NO IS WE DID HAVE DIFFICULTY SCHEDULING A MEETING BUT THERE WAS NO LINKAGE LIKE THAT.QUESTION, YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE NOT AWARE OF ANY LINKAGE BETWEEN A DELAY IN THE OVAL OFFICE MEETING BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKY AND THE UKRANIAN COMMITMENT TO INVESTIGATE THE TWO ALLEGATIONS AS YOU DESCRIBED THEM, CORRECT? ANSWER, CORRECT. ON NO FEWER THAN 15 SEPARATE OCCASIONS OVER THE PAST WEEK THE HOUSE MANAGERS PLAYED A VIDEO OF BLAFERRED SONDLAND SAYING THAT THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE INVESTIGATIONS WAS A PREREQUISITE FOR A MEETING OR CALL WITH THE PRESIDENT. 15 TIMES. THEY NEVER ONCE READ TO YOU THE TESTIMONY THAT I JUST DID.THEY NEVER ONCE READ TO YOU THE TESTIMONY IN WHICH AMBASSADOR VOLKER REFUTED WHAT AMBASSADOR SONDLAND CLAIMED HE HEARD FROM AMBASSADOR VOLKER. SO HERE’S WHAT WE KNOW. PRESIDENT TRUMP INVITED PRESIDENT ZELENSKY TO MEET THREE TIMES WITHOUT PRECONDITIONS. THE WHITE HOUSE WAS WORKING BEHIND THE SCENES TO SCHEDULE THE MEETING. THE TWO PRESIDENTS PLANNED TO MEET IN WARSAW JUST AS PRESIDENT ZELENSKY HAD ASKED. AND ULTIMATELY MET THREE WEEKS LATER WITHOUT UKRAINE ANNOUNCING ANY INVESTIGATIONS. NO ONE TESTIFIED IN THE HOUSE RECORD THAT THE PRESIDENT EVER SAID THERE WAS A CONNECTION BETWEEN A MEETING AND INVESTIGATIONS. THOSE ARE THE FACTS, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. SO MUCH FOR A QUID PRO QUO FOR A MEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT. BEFORE I MOVE ON, LET ME TAKE A BRIEF MOMENT TOLL ADDRESS A SIDE ALLEGATION THAT WAS RAISED IN THE ORIGINAL WHISTLE-BLOWER COMPLAINT AND THAT THE HOUSE MANAGERS ARE STILL TRYING TO PUSH. THE MANAGERS CLAIM THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP ORDERED VICE PRESIDENT PENCE NOT TO ATTEND PRESIDENT ZELENSKY’S INAUGURATION IN FAVOR OF A LOWER-RANKING DELEGATION. IN ORDER, ACCORDING TO THEM, TO SIGNAL A DOWNGRADING OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND UKRAINE.THAT’S NOT TRUE. NUMEROUS FACTORS HAD TO ALIGN, AS I’M SURE EVERYONE IN THIS ROOM CAN GREATLY APPRECIATE, FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT TO ATTEND. FIRST, DATES OF TRAVEL WERE LIMITED. FOR A NATIONAL SECURITY REASONS, THE PRESIDENT AND VICE PRESIDENT GENERALLY AVOID BEING OUT OF THE COUNTRY AT THE SAME TIME FOR MORE THAN A FEW HOURS. THE PRESIDENT HAD SCHEDULED TRIPS TO EUROPE AND JAPAN DURING THE PERIOD WHEN OUR EMBASSY IN UKRAINE ANTICIPATED THE UKRANIAN INAUGURATION WOULD OCCUR AT THE END OF MAY OR IN EARLY JUNE. JENNIFER WILLIAMS TESTIFIED THAT THE OFFICE OF THE VICE PRESIDENT ADVISED THE UKRANIANS THAT IF THE VICE PRESIDENT WERE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE INAUGURATION, THE IDEAL DATES WOULD BE AROUND MAY 29, MAY 30, MAY 31 OR JUNE 1 WHEN THE PRESIDENT WOULD BE IN THE UNITED STATES. SHE SAID IF IT WASN’T ONE OF THOSE DATES, IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT OR IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT TO ATTEND.SECOND, THE HOUSE MANAGERS ACT AS IF NO OTHER PRIORITIES IN THE WORLD COULD COMPETE FOR THE ADMINISTRATION’S TIME. THE VICE PRESIDENT’S OFFICE WAS SIMULTANEOUSLY PLANNING A COMPETING TRIP FOR MAY 30 IN OTTAWA, CANADA, TO PARTICIPATE IN AN EVENT SUPPORTING PASSAGE OF THE UNITED STATES-MEXICO-CANADA AGREEMENT. ULTIMATELY, THE VICE PRESIDENT TRAVELED TO OTTAWA ON MAY 30 TO MEET WITH PRESIDENT JUSTIN TRUDEAU AND PROMOTE THE PASSAGE OF THE USMCA. THIS DECISION, AS YOU KNOW, ADVANCED THE TOP ADMINISTRATION PRIORITY, AN ISSUE PRESIDENT TRUMP VIGOROUSLY SUPPORTED. WHAT YOU DID NOT HEAR FROM THE HOUSE MANAGERS WAS THAT THE UKRAINIAN INAUGURATION DATES DID NOT GO AS PLANNED. ON MAY 16, MAY 16, THE UKRAINIANS SURPRISED EVERYONE AND SCHEDULED THE INAUGURATION FOR JUST FOUR DAYS LATER ON MAY 20, MONDAY, MAY 20. SO THINK ABOUT THAT. MAY 16, MAY 20. GET EVERYBODY, SECURITY, ADVANCE, EVERYONE TO UKRAINE. JENNIFER WILLIAMS TESTIFIED THAT IT WAS VERY SHORT NOTICE, SO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFICULT FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT TO ATTEND, PARTICULARLY SINCE THEY HADN’T SENT OUT THE ADVANCE TEAM.GEORGE KENT TESTIFIED THAT THE SHORT NOTICE LEFT ALMOST NO TIME FOR EITHER PROPER PREPARATIONS OR FOREIGN DELEGATIONS TO VISIT, AND THAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT SCRAMBLED ON FRIDAY, THE 17th, TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHO WAS AVAILABLE. MR. KENT SUGGESTED THAT SECRETARY OF ENERGY PERRY BE THE ANCHOR FOR THE DELEGATION AS SOMEONE WHO WAS A PERSON OF STATURE AND WHOSE JOB HAD RELEVANCE TO OUR AGENDA. SECRETARY PERRY LED THE DELEGATION, WHICH ALSO INCLUDED AMBASSADOR SONDLAND, AMBASSADOR VOLKER, AND SENATOR JOHNSON. AMBASSADOR VOLKER TESTIFIED THAT IT WAS THE LARGEST DELEGATION FROM ANY COUNTRY THERE, AND IT WAS A HIGH LEVEL ONE. THE HOUSE MANAGERS DIDN’T TELL YOU THIS. WHY NOT? THE CLAIM THAT THE PRESIDENT INSTRUCTED THE VICE PRESIDENT NOT TO ATTEND PRESIDENT ZELENSKY’S INAUGURATION IS BASED ON HOUSE MANAGER ASSUMPTIONS, WITH NO EVIDENCE THAT THE PRESIDENT DID SOMETHING WRONG.AND FINALLY, AS I’M COMING TO THE END, IF THE EVIDENCE DOESN’T SHOW A QUID PRO QUO, WHAT DOES IT SHOW? UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE HOUSE MANAGERS, ONE OF THE FEW THINGS THAT ALL OF THE WITNESSES AGREED ON WAS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS STRENGTHENED THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE U.S. AND UKRAINE AND THAT HE HAS BEEN A MORE STALWART FRIEND TO UKRAINE AND A MORE FIERCE OPPONENT OF RUSSIAN AGGRESSION THAN PRESIDENT OBAMA. THE HOUSE MANAGERS REPEATEDLY CLAIMED THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DOESN’T CARE ABOUT UKRAINE.THEY ARE ATTRIBUTING VIEWS TO PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT ARE CONTRARY TO HIS ACTIONS. MORE IMPORTANTLY, THEY ARE CONTRARY TO THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ OWN EVIDENCE. BUT DON’T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT. AMBASSADORS YOVANOVITCH, TAYLOR, AND VOLKER ALL TESTIFIED TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION’S POSITIVE NEW POLICY TOWARD UKRAINE, BASED ESPECIALLY ON PRESIDENT TRUMP’S DECISION TO PROVIDE LETHAL AID TO UKRAINE. AMBASSADOR TAYLOR TESTIFIED THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP’S POLICY TOWARD UKRAINE WAS A SUBSTANTIAL IMPROVEMENT OVER PRESIDENT OBAMA’S POLICIES. AMBASSADOR VOLKER AGREED THAT AMERICA’S POLICY TOWARDS UKRAINE HAS BEEN STRENGTHENED UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP WHOM HE CREDITED WITH APPROVING EACH OF THE DECISIONS MADE ALONG THE WAY. AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH TESTIFIED THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP’S DECISION TO PROVIDE LETHAL WEAPONS TO UKRAINE MEANT THAT OUR POLICY ACTUALLY GOT STRONGER OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS.SHE CALLED THE POLICY SHIFT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DIRECTED VERY SIGNIFICANT. LET’S HEAR FROM AMBASSADOR TAYLOR, AMBASSADOR VOLKER, AND AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH. >> THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS INDEED PROVIDED SUBSTANTIAL AID TO UKRAINE IN THE FORM OF DEFENSE AND LEGAL AID, CORRECT? >> THAT IS CORRECT. >> THAT IS MORE THAN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, CORRECT? DEFENSIVE LEGAL AID. >> YES. >> PRESIDENT TRUMP APPROVED EACH OF THE DECISIONS MADE ALONG THE WAY, PROVIDING LETHAL DEFENSIVE EQUIPMENT. >> AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION STRENGTHENED OUR POLICY BY APPROVING THE PROVISION TO UKRAINE OF ANTITANK MISSILES KNOWN AS JAVELINS.THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY TANKBUSTERS. SO IF THE WAR WITH RUSSIA ALL OF A SUDDEN ACCELERATED IN SOME WAY AND TANKS COME OVER THE HORIZON, JAVELINS ARE A VERY SERIOUS WEAPON TO DEAL WITH THAT. MR. PURPURA: UKRAINE IS BETTER POSITIONED TO FIGHT RUSSIA TODAY THAN IT WAS BEFORE PRESIDENT TRUMP TOOK OFFICE. AS A RESULT, THE UNITED STATES IS SAFER, TOO. THE HOUSE MANAGERS DID NOT TELL YOU ABOUT THIS TESTIMONY FROM AMBASSADORS TAYLOR, VOLKER, AND YOVANOVITCH.WHY NOT? THESE ARE THE FACTS, AS DRAWN FROM THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ OWN RECORD ON WHICH THEY IMPEACHED THE PRESIDENT. THIS IS WHY THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ FIRST ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT MUST FAIL, FOR THE SIX REASONS I SET FORTH WHEN I BEGAN ON SATURDAY. THERE WAS NO LINKAGE BETWEEN INVESTIGATIONS AND SECURITY ASSISTANCE OR MEETING ON THE JULY 25 CALL. THE UKRAINIANS SAID THERE WAS NO QUID PRO QUO, AND THEY FELT NO PRESSURE. THE TOP UKRAINIANS DID NOT EVEN KNOW THAT SECURITY ASSISTANCE WAS PAUSED UNTIL MORE THAN A MONTH AFTER THE JULY 25 CALL. THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ RECORD REFLECTS THAT ANYONE WHO SPOKE WITH THE PRESIDENT SAID THAT THE PRESIDENT MADE CLEAR THAT THERE WAS NO LINKAGE. THE SECURITY ASSISTANCE FLOWED AND THE PRESIDENTIAL MEETING TOOK PLACE, ALL WITHOUT ANY ANNOUNCEMENT OF INVESTIGATIONS. AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ENHANCED AMERICA’S SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE IN HIS THREE YEARS IN OFFICE. THESE FACTS ALL REQUIRE THAT THE FIRST ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT FAIL. YOU HAVE ALREADY HEARD AND WILL CONTINUE TO HEAR FROM MY COLLEAGUES ON WHY THE SECOND ARTICLE MUST FAIL. ONCE AGAIN, THIS IS THE CASE THAT THE HOUSE MANAGERS CHOSE TO BRING.THIS IS THE EVIDENCE THEY BROUGHT BEFORE THE SENATE. THE VERY HEAVY BURDEN OF PROOF RESTS WITH THEM. THEY SAY THEIR CASE IS OVERWHELMING AND UNCONTESTED. IT IS NOT. THEY SAY THEY HAVE PROVEN EACH OF THE ARTICLES AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP. THEY HAVE NOT. THE FACTS AND EVIDENCE OF THE CASE THE HOUSE MANAGERS HAVE BROUGHT EXONERATE THE PRESIDENT. THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION. AND I THINK WE’RE READY FOR A BREAK. THE PRESIDING OFFICER: THE MAJORITY LEADER IS RECOGNIZED. MR. McCONNELL: I WILL NOTIFY OUR COLLEAGUES, WE WOULD LIKE TO TAKE A 15-MINUTE BREAK. THE PRESIDING OFFICER: WITHOUT OBJECTION. RECESS: DISWR UNDERTHAT HAVING SCULD WITH THE PRESIDENT’S LAWYERS THAT WE’RE LOOKING AT AROUND 6:00 P.M. FOR DINNER AND FLY RIGHT THROUGH TILL 6:00 P.M. 6. THE PRESIDING OFFICER: THE PRESIDENT’S COUNSEL CAN CONTINUE WITH THEIR CASE. MR. SEKULOW THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF TALKS IN THE BRIEFS AND IN THE DISCUSSIONS OVER THE LAST WEEK ABOUT ONE OF OUR COLLEAGUES, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK, RUDI GIULIANI. MAYOR GIULIANI SERVED AS ONE OF THE LEADERS OF THE PRESIDENT’S DEFENSE TEAM. DURING THE MUELLER INVESTIGATION. HE’S MENTIONED 53 # TIMES, — 531 TIMES, 511 IN THE ARGUMENTS, INCLUDING THE MOTION DAY. WE HAD A ROBUST TEAM THAT WORKED ON THE PRESIDENT’S DEFENSE DURING THE MUELLER PROBE, CONSISTED OF MAYOR GIULIANI, ANDREW, BEN SISSNI AND BEN GOLDFEDER AND MARTY RASKIN AND JANE RASKIN. SHE WAS ONE OF THE LEADING ATTORNEYS ON THE MUELLER INVESTIGATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF THE PRESIDENT. THE ISSUE OF MAYOR GIULIANI HAS COME UP IN THIS CHAMBER A LOT. MR. SEKULOW: WE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO TURN TO THAT ISSUE, THE ROLE OF THE PRESIDENT’S LAWYER, HIS PRIVATE COUNSEL IN THIS PROCEEDING. I WOULD LIKE TO YIELD MY TIME, MR. CHIEF JUSTICE TO JANE RASKIN. MS. RASKIN: MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, MAJORITY LEADER McCONNELL, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE.I EXPECT YOU HAVE HEARD AMERICAN PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CARL SANBERG SUMMARY OF — IF THE FACTS ARE AGAINST YOU, ARGUE THE LAW. IF THE LAW IS AGAINST YOU, ARGUE THE FACTS. IF THE FACTS AND THE LAW ARE AGAINST YOU, POUND THE TABLE AND YELL LIKE HELL. WELL, WE HEARD THE HOUSE MANAGERS DO SOME TABLE POUNDING AND A LITTLE YELLING, BUT THEY’VE USED A DIFFERENT TACTIC HERE, USED BY TRIAL LAWYERS, IF BOTH THE LAWS AND FACTS ARE AGAINST YOU, PRESENT A DISTRACTION, EMPHASIZE A ESSENTIAL FACT OR A CONTROVERSIAL PUBLIC FIGURE WHO APPEARS ON THE SCENE, THEN DISTORT CERTAIN FACTS, IGNORE OTHERS, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE THE MOST PROBATIVE, MAKE INCLUSION ORDINARY — THE SHINY OBJECT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE ACTUAL FACTS ALLOWED.IN SHORT, DIVERT ATTENTION FROM THE HOLES IN YOUR CASE. RUDI GIULIANI IS THE HOUSE MANAGERS COLORFUL DISTRACTION. HE’S A HOUSEHOLD NAME, LEGENDARY FEDERAL PROSECUTOR WHO TOOK DOWN THE MAFIA, WALL STREET RACKETEERS, CRIME-BUSTING MAYOR WHO CLEANED UP NEW YORK AND TURNED IT AROUND. A NATIONAL HERO, AMERICA’S MAYOR AFTER 9/11, AND AFTER THAT, AN INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED EXPERT ON FIGHTING CORRUPTION. TO BE SURE, MR. GIULIANI HAS ALWAYS BEEN SOMEWHAT OF A CONTROVERSIAL FIGURE FOR HIS HARD-HITTING TAKE-NO-PRISONER APPROACH, BUT IT’S NO STRETCH TO SAY THAT HE WAS RESPECTED BY FRIEND AND FOE ALIKE FOR HIS INTELLECT, HIS TE THAT’S TENACIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS, AND HIS FIERCE LOYALTY TO HIS CAUSES AND HIS COUNTRY. AND THEN, THE UNTHINKABLE. HE PUBLICLY SUPPORTED THE CANDIDACY OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, THE ONE WHO WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO WIN.AND THEN IN THE SPRING OF 2018, HE STOOD UP TO DEFEND THE PRESIDENT, SUCCESSFULLY IT TURNS OUT, AGAINST WHAT WE ALL NOW KNOW AS THE REAL DEBUNKED CONSPIRACY THEORY, THAT THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN CLUEDED WITH RUSSIA DURING THE 2016 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN. THE HOUSE MANAGERS WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE THAT MR. GIULIANI IS AT THE CENTER OF THIS CONTROVERSY. THEY ANOINTED HIM THE LEAD OF A ROGUE OPERATION. THEIR PRESENTATIONS WERE FILLED WITH ATTACKS AND NAME CALLING. COLD-BLOODED POLITICAL OBJECTIVE, POLITICAL BAG MAN. BUT I SUGGEST TO YOU THAT HE’S FRONT AND CENTER IN THEIR AIR NARRATIVE FOR ONE REASON ALONE, TO DISTRACT FROM THE FACT THAT THE EVIDENCE DOES NOT SUPPORT THEIR CLAIMS.SO WHAT’S THE FIRST TELL THAT MR. GIULIANI’S ROLE IN THIS MAY NOT BE ALL THAT IT’S CRACKED UP TO BE? THEY DIDN’T SUBPOENA HIM TO TESTIFY. IN FACT, MR. SCHIFF AND HIS COMMITTEE NEVER EVEN INVITED HIM TO TESTIFY. THEY TOOK A STAB AT SUBPOENAING HIS DOCUMENTS BACK IN SEPTEMBER AND WHEN HIS LAWYER RESPONDED WITH LEGAL DEFENSES TO THE PRODUCTION, THE HOUSE WALKED AWAY. BUT IF RUDI GIULIANI IS EVERYTHING THEY SAY HE IS, DON’T YOU THINK THEY WOULD HAVE SUBPOENAED AND PURSUED HIS TESTIMONY? ASK YOURSELVES, WHY DIDN’T THEY? IN FACT, IT APPEARS THE HOUSE COMMITTEE WASN’T PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN PRESENTING YOU WITH ANY DIRECT EVIDENCE OF WHAT MAYOR GIULIANI DID OR WHY HE DID IT. INSTEAD, THEY ASK YOU TO RELY ON HEARSAY, SPECULATION AND ASSUMPTION, EVIDENCE THAT WOULD BE INADMISSIBLE IN ANY COURT. FOR EXAMPLE, THE HOUSE MANAGERS SUGGEST THAT MR. GIULIANI, AT THE PRESIDENT’S DIRECTION, DEMANDED THAT UKRAINE ANNOUNCE AN INVESTIGATION OF THE BIDENS AND BURISMA BEFORE GREEG TO A WHITE HOUSE — AGREEING TO A WHITE HOUSE VISIT.THEY BASE THAT ON AMBASSADOR SONDLAND. WHAT THE HOUSE MANAGERS DON’T TELL YOU WAS THAT SONDLAND ADMITTED HE WAS SPECULATING ABOUT THAT. HE PRESUMED THAT MR. GIULIANI’S REQUESTS WERE INTENDED AS A CONDITION FOR A WHITE HOUSE VISIT. EVEN WORSE, HIS ASSUMPTION WAS ON THIRD-HAND INFORMATION. AS HE PUT IT, THE MOST HE COULD DO IS REPEAT WHAT HE HEARD THROUGH AMBASSADOR VOLKER FROM GIULIANI, WHOM HE PRESUMED SPOKE TO THE PRESIDENT ON THE ISSUE.AND, BY THE WAY, AS MR. PURPURA HAS EXPLAINED, THE PERSON WHO WAS ACTUALLY SPEAKING TO MR. GIULIANI, AMBASSADOR VOLKER, TESTIFIED CLEARLY THAT THERE WAS NO LINKAGE BETWEEN THE MEETING WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY AND UKRAINIAN INVESTIGATIONS. THE HOUSE MANAGERS ALSO MAKE MUCH OF A MAY 23 WHITE HOUSE MEETING DURING WHICH THE PRESIDENT SUGGESTED TO HIS UKRAINE WORKING GROUP, INCLUDING AMBASSADORS VOLKER AND SONDLAND, THAT THEY SHOULD TALK TO RUDE YIF RUDY. THE MANAGERS TOLD YOU THAT THEY GAVE A DIRECTIVE THAT THEY NEEDED TO WORK WITH GIULIANI IF THEY WERE GOING TO AGREE WITH THE UKRAINE POLICY THEY WERE PROPOSING.BUT THOSE WORDS, DIRECTIVE AND DEMAND ARE MISLEADING. THEY MISREPRESENT WHAT THE WITNESSES ACTUALLY SAID. AMBASSADOR VOLKER TESTIFIED THAT HE UNDERSTOOD, BASED ON THE MEETING, THAT GIULIANI WAS ONLY ONE OF SEVERAL SOURCES OF INFORMATION FOR THE PRESIDENT AND THE PRESIDENT SIMPLY WANTED OFFICIALS TO SPEAK TO MR. GIULIANI BECAUSE HE KNOWS ALL THESE THINGS ABOUT UKRAINE. AS VOLKER PUT IT, THE PRESIDENT’S COMMENT WAS NOT AN INSTRUCTION BUT JUST A COMMENT. AMBASSADOR SONDLAND AGREED. HE TESTIFIED THAT HE DIDN’T TAKE IT AS AN ORDER AND HE ADDED THAT THE PRESIDENT WASN’T EVEN SPECIFIC ABOUT WHAT HE WANTED US TO TALK TO GIULIANI ABOUT. SO IT MAY COME AS NO SURPRISE TO YOU THAT AFTER THE MAY 23 MEETING, THE ONE DURING WHICH THE HOUSE MANAGERS TOLD YOU THE PRESIDENT DEMANDED THAT HIS UKRAINE TEAM TALK TO GIULIANI, NEITHER VOLKER NOR SONDLAND FOLLOWED UP WITH MR. GIULIANI UNTIL JULY. AND THE JULY FOLLOWUP BY MR. VOLKER HAPPENED ONLY BECAUSE THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT ASKED TO BE PUT IN TOUCH WITH HIM. VOLKER TESTIFIED THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKY’S SENIOR AIDE ANDREY YERMAK APPROACHED HIM TO BE CONTACTED BY MR. GIULIANI. HOUSE DEMOCRATS RELY ON TESTIMONY THAT MAYOR GIULIANI TOLD AMBASSADORS VOLKER AND SONDLAND THAT IN HIS VIEW TO BE CREDIBLE A UKRAINIAN STATEMENT ON ANTICORRUPTION SHOULD SPECIFICALLY MENTION INVESTIGATIONS INTO 2016 ELECTION INTERFERENCE AND BURISMA.BUT WHEN AMBASSADOR VOLKER WAS ASKED WHETHER HE KNEW GIULIANI WAS, AND THESE ARE HIS WORDS, CONVEYING MESSAGES THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTED CONVEYED TO THE UKRAINIANS, AMBASSADOR VOLKER SAID HE DID NOT HAVE THAT IMPRESSION AND HE BELIEVED THAT GIULIANI WAS DOING HIS OWN COMMUNICATION ABOUT WHAT HE BELIEVED HE WAS INTERESTED IN. BUT EVEN MORE SIGNIFICANT THAN THE RELIANCE ON PRESUMPTIONS, ASSUMPTIONS AND UNSUPPORTED CON CHOOSINGS, — CONCLUSIONINGS IS THE MANAGERS FAILURE TO PLACE ANY FAIR CONTEXT MR. GIULIANI’S ACTUAL ROLE IN EXPLORING UKRAINIAN CORRUPTION. TO HEAR THEIR PRESENTATION, YOU MIGHT THINK THAT MAYOR GIULIANI HAD PARACHUTED INTO THE PRESIDENT’S ORBIT IN THE SPRING OF 2019 FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF CARRYING OUT A POLITICAL HITCHUP.THEY’D HAVE YOU BELIEVE THAT MAYOR GIULIANI WAS ONLY THERE TO DIG UP DIRT AGAINST FORMER PRESIDENT BIDEN BECAUSE HE MIGHT BE PRESIDENT TRUMP’S RIVAL IN THE 2020 ELECTION. OF COURSE, MR. GIULIANI’S INTENT IS NO SMALL MATTER HERE. IT’S A SNARL AND ESSENTIAL PRESIDENT OBAMA — IT’S A CENTRAL AND ESSENTIAL PREMISE THAT INVESTIGATING UKRAINIAN CORRUPTION AND INTERFERENCE IN THE 2016 ELECTION WAS AN ENTIRELY POLITICAL ONE UNDERTAKEN AT THE PRESIDENT’S DIRECTION. BUT WHAT EVIDENCE HAVE THE MANAGERS ACTUALLY OFFERED YOU TO SUPPORT THAT PROPOSITION? ON CLOSE INSPECTION IT TURNS OUT VIRTUALLY NONE. THEY JUST SAY IT OVER AND OVER AND OVER. AND THEY OFFER YOU ANOTHER FALSE DICHOTOMY.EITHER MR. GIULIANI WAS ACTING IN AN OFFICIAL CAPACITY TO FURTHER THE PRESIDENT’S FOREIGN POLICY OBJECTIVES OR HE WAS ACTING AS THE PRESIDENT’S PERSONAL ATTORNEY, IN WHICH CASE THEY CONCLUDE, HIS MOTIVE COULD ONLY BE TO FURTHER THE PRESIDENT’S POLITICAL OBJECTIVES THE HOUSE MANAGERS POINT TO VARIOUS OF MR. GIULIANI’S PUBLIC STATEMENTS IN WHICH HE IS CLEAR AND COMPLETELY TRANSPARENT ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE IS INDEED THE PRESIDENT’S PERSONAL ATTORNEY. THERE YOU HAVE IT. GIULIANI ADMITS HE’S ACTING AS THE PRESIDENT’S PERSONAL ATTORNEY AND THEREFORE HE HAD TO HAVE BEEN ACTING WITH A POLITICAL MOTIVE TO INFLUENCE THE TO 20 ELECTION. NO OTHER OPTION. RIGHT? WRONG. THERE IS OF COURSE ANOTHER OBVIOUS ANSWER TO THE QUESTION, WHAT MOTIVATED MAYOR GIULIANI TO INVESTIGATE THE POSSIBLE INVOLVEMENT OF UKRANIANS IN THE 2016 ELECTION? THE HOUSE MANAGERS KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS. IT’S IN PLAIN SIGHT. AND MR. GIULIANI HAS TOLD ANY NUMBER OF NEWS OUTLETS EXACTLY WHEN AND WHY HE BECAME INTERESTED IN THE ISSUE. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE 2020 ELECTION. MAYOR GIULIANI BEGAN INVESTIGATING UKRAINE CORRUPTION AND INTERFERENCE IN THE 2020 ELECTION WAY BACK IN NOVEMBER OF 2018. A FULL SIX MONTHS BEFORE VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN AN ANNOUNCED HIS CANDIDACY AND FOUR MONTHS BEFORE THE RELEASE OF THE MUELLER REPORT, WHEN THE BIGGEST FALSE CONSPIRACY THEORY IN CIRCULATION, THAT THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN HAD COLLUDED WITH RUSSIA DURING THE 2016 CAMPAIGN, WAS STILL IN WIDE CIRCULATION. AS THE “HILL” REPORTED, AS PRESIDENT TRUMP’S HIGHEST PROFILE DEFENSE ATTORNEY, THE FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR, OFTEN KNOWN SIMPLY AS RUDY, BELIEVED THE UKRANIANS’ EVIDENCE COULD ASSIST IN HIS DEFENSE AGAINST THE RUSSIAN COLLUSION INVESTIGATION AND FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL ROBERT MUELLER’S FINAL REPORT. SO GIULIANI BEGAN TO CHECK THINGS OUT IN LATE 2018 AND EARLY 2019. THE GENESIS OF MAYOR GIULIANI’S INVESTIGATION WAS ALSO REPORTED BY NUMEROUS OTHER MEDIA OUTLETS, INCLUDING CNN, WHICH RELATED THAT GIULIANI’S ROLE IN UKRAINE CAN BE TRACED BACK TO NOVEMBER 2018, WHEN HE WAS CONTACTED BY SOMEONE HE DESCRIBES AS A WELL-KNOWN INVESTIGATOR. THE”THE WASHINGTON POST” AND OTR NEWS OUTLETS REPORTED THE SAME INFORMATION. SO, YES, MAYOR GIULIANI WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP’S PERSONAL ATTORNEY, BUT HE WAS NOT ON A POLITICAL ERRAND. AS HE HAS STATED REPEATEDLY AND PUBLICLY, HE WAS DOING WHAT GOOD DEFENSE ATTORNEYS DO.HE WAS FOLLOWING A LEAD FROM A WELL-KNOWN PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR. HE WAS GATHERING EVIDENCE REGARDING UKRANIAN ELECTION INTERFERENCE TO DEFEND HIS CLIENT AGAINST THE FALSE ALLEGATIONS BEING INVESTIGATED BY SPECIAL COUNSEL MUELLER. BUT THE HOUSE MANAGERS DIDN’T EVEN ALLUDE TO THAT POSSIBILITY. INSTEAD THEY JUST REPEATED THEIR MANTRA THAT GIULIANI’S MOTIVE WAS PURELY POLITICAL, AND THAT SPEAKS VOLUMES ABOUT THE BIAS WITH WHICH THEY HAVE APPROACHED THEIR MISSION. THE BOTTOM LINE IS MR. GIULIANI DEFENDED PRESIDENT TRUMP VIGOROUSLY, RELENTLESSLY AND PUBLICLY THROUGHOUT THE MUELLER INVESTIGATION, AND IN THE NONSTOP CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATIONS THAT FOLLOWED, INCLUDING THE ATTEMPTED MUELLER REDO BY THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, WHICH THE MANAGERS WOULD APPARENTLY LIKE TO SNEAK IN THE BACK DOOR HERE. THE HOUSE MANAGERS MAY NOT LIKE HIS STYLE. YOU MAY NOT LIKE HIS STYLE. BUT ONE MIGHT ARGUE THAT HE IS EVERYTHING CLARENCE DARROW SAID A DEFENSE LAWYER MUST BE — OUTRAGEOUS, IRREVERENT, BLASPHEMOUS, A ROGUE, A RENEGADE. THE FACT IS IN THE END, AFTER A TWO-YEAR SIEGE ON THE PRESIDENCY, TWO INSPECTOR GENERAL REPORTS, AND A $32 MILLION SPECIAL COUNSEL INVESTIGATION, IT TURNS OUT RUDY WAS SPOT ON. IT SEEMS TO ME, IF WE’RE KEEPING SCORE ON WHO GOT IT RIGHT ON ALLEGATIONS OF FISA ABUSE, EGREGIOUS MISCONDUCT AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF THE F.B.I., ALLEGED COLLUSION BETWEEN THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN AND RUSSIA, AND SUPPOSED OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE IN CONNECTION WITH THE SPECIAL COUNSEL INVESTIGATION, THE SCORE IS MAYOR GIULIANI FOUR, MR.SCHIFF ZERO. BUT NDGES — BUT IN THIS TRIAL, IN THIS MOMENT MR. GIULIANI IS JUST A MINOR PLAYER, THAT SHINY OBJECT DESIGNED TO DISTRACT YOU. SENATORS, I URGE YOU MOST RESPECTFULLY, DO NOT BE DISTRACTED. THANK YOU MR. CHIEF JUSTICE. I YIELD BACK TO MR. SEKULOW. MR. SEKULOW: MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, HOUSE MANAGERS, WE’RE GOING TO NOW MOVE TO A SECTION DEALING WITH THE LAW. TWO ISSUES IN PARTICULAR THAT MY COLLEAGUE PAT PHILBIN, THE DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL, WILL BE ADDRESSING — ISSUES INVOLVING DUE PROCESS AND ISSUES SPECIFICALLY, LEGAL ISSUES DEALING WITH THE SECOND ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT, OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS. SO I WILL YIELD MY TIME NOW, MR.CHIEF JUSTICE, TO MR. PHILBIN. MR. PHILBIN: MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, SENATORS, MAJORITY LEADER McCONNELL, MINORITY LEADER SCHUMER, THE OTHER DAY AS WE OPENED OUR PRESENTATION, I TOUCHED ON TWO AREAS, SOME OF THE DUE PROCESS VIOLATIONS THAT CHARACTERIZED THE PROCEEDINGS IN THE HOUSE, AND SOME OF THE FUNDAMENTAL MISCHARACTERIZATIONS AND ERRORS THAT UNDERPIN THE CHARGE OF OBSTRUCTION. TODAY I’LL COMPLETE THE PRESENTATIONS ON THOSE POINTS TO ROUND OUT SOME OF THE FUNDAMENTALLY UNFAIR PROCEDURE THAT WAS USED IN THE HOUSE AND ITS IMPLICATIONS FOR THIS PROCEEDING BEFORE YOU NOW.AND ALSO ADDRESS IN DETAIL THE PURPORTED CHARGES OF OBSTRUCTION IN THE SECOND ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT. ON DUE PROCESS, THERE ARE THREE FUNDAMENTAL ERRORS THAT AFFECTED THE PROCEEDINGS IN THE HOUSE. THE FIRST IS, AS I EXPLAINED ON SATURDAY, THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY WAS UNAUTHORIZED AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL FROM THE BEGINNING. NO COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE HAS THE POWER TO LAUNCH AN INQUIRY UNDER THE HOUSE’S IMPEACHMENT POWER UNLESS THE HOUSE ITSELF HAS TAKEN A VOTE TO GIVE THAT AUTHORITY TO A COMMITTEE. I NOTED THAT IN CASES SUCH AS UNITED STATES VS. WATKINS, THE SUPREME COURT SET OUT THESE PRINCIPLES SCET — SET OUT IN THE CONSTITUTION WHICH ASSIGNS AUTHORITY TO THE HOUSE AND TO THE SENATE.NOT TO INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS OR TO THE SUBCOMMITTEES. FOR AN AUTHORITY OF THE HOUSE TO BE TRANSFERRED TO A COMMITTEE, THE HOUSE HAS TO VOTE ON THAT. THE D.C. CIRCUIT HAS DISTILLED THE CIRCUIT FROM THOSE CASES THIS WAY. TO ISSUE A VALID SUBPOENA, A COMMITTEE OR SUBCOMMITTEE MUST CONFORM STRICTLY TO THE RESOLUTION ESTABLISHING ITS INVESTIGATE INVESTIGATIVE POWERS. THAT WAS THE PROBLEM HERE. THERE WAS NO SUCH RESOLUTION, NO VOTE FROM THE HOUSE AUTHORIZING THE USE OF THE SUBPOENAS UNDER THE IMPEACHMENT POWER. SO THIS INQUIRY BEGAN WITH NEARLY TWO DOZEN INVALID SUBPOENAS. THE SPEAKER HAD THE HOUSE PROCEED ON NOTHING MORE THAN A PRESS CONFERENCE IN WHICH SHE PURPORTED TO AUTHORIZE COMMITTEES TO BEGIN AN IMPEACHMENT POWER.UNDER THE CONSTITUTION SHE LACKED THAT AUTHORITY. AS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE DURING THE NIXON IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY POINTED OUT, PETER RODINO, EXPLAINED THAT SUCH A RESOLUTION FROM THE HOUSE HAS ALWAYS BEEN PASSED BY THE HOUSE. IT IS A NECESSARY STEP IF WE ARE TO MEET OUR OBLIGATIONS. SO WE BEGAN THIS PROCESS WITH UNAUTHORIZED SUBPOENAS THAT IMPOSED NO COMPULSION ON THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH TO RESPOND WITH DOCUMENTS OR WITNESSES. AND I’LL BE COMING BACK TO THAT POINT, THAT THRESH HOMED FOUNDATIONAL — THRESHOLD FOUNDATIONAL POINT WHEN WE GET TO THE OBSTRUCTION CHARGE. THE SECOND FUNDAMENTAL DUE PROCESS ERROR IS THAT THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS DENIED THE PRESIDENT BASIC DUE PROCESS REQUIRED BY THE CONSTITUTION AND BY FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES OF FAIRNESS IN THE PROCEDURES THAT THEY USED FOR THE HEARINGS.AND I’M NOT GOING TO GO BACK IN DETAIL OVER THOSE. AS WE HEARD FROM JUDGE STARR, THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS ESSENTIALLY ABANDONED THE PRINCIPLES THAT HAVE GOVERNED IMPEACHMENT INQUIRIES IN THE HOUSE FOR OVER 150 YEARS. AND I’LL TOUCH ON JUST A FEW POINTS ANDRESPOND TO A COUPLE OF POINTS THAT THE HOUSE MANAGERS HAVE MADE. THE FIRST IS IN DENYING DUE PROCESS RIGHTS, THE HOUSE PROCEEDINGS WERE A HUGE REVERSAL FROM THE POSITIONS HOUSE DEMOCRATS THEMSELVES HAVE TAKEN IN THE RECENT PAST, PARTICULARLY IN THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDING. I BELIEVE WE HAVE MANAGER NADLER’S DESCRIPTION OF WHAT WAS REQUIRED.MANAGER NADLER WAS EXPLAINING THAT DUE PROCESS REQUIRES AT A MINIMUM NOTICE OF THE CHARGES AGAINST YOU, THE RIGHT TO BE REPRESENTED BY COUNSEL, THE RIGHT TO CROSS-EXAMINE WITNESSES AGAINST YOU, AND THE RIGHT TO PRESENT EVIDENCE. ALL OF THOSE RIGHTS WERE DENIED TO THE PRESIDENT. NOW ONE OF THE RESPONSES THAT THE MANAGERS HAVE MADE TO THE DEFECT THAT WE POINTED OUT IN THE SECRET PROCEEDINGS WHERE MANAGER SCHIFF BEGAN THESE HEARINGS IN THE BASEMENT BUNKER IS THAT WHILE THAT WAS REALLY JUST BEST INVESTIGATIVE PRACTICE. THEY WERE OPERATING LIKE A GRAND JURY. DON’T BE FOOLED BY THAT. THOSE HEARINGS OPERATED NOTHING LIKE A GRAND JURY. A GRAND JURY HAS SECRECY PRIMARILY FOR TWO REASONS. TO PROTECT THE DIRECTION OF THE INVESTIGATION SO OTHERS WON’T KNOW WHAT WITNESSES ARE BEING CALLED IN AND WHAT THEY’RE SAYING, TO KEEP THAT SECRET FOR THE PROSECUTOR TO BE ABLE TO KEEP DEVELOPING THE EVIDENCE.AND TO PROTECT THE ACCUSED, BECAUSE THE ACCUSED MIGHT NOT EVER BE INDICTED. IN THIS CASE ALL OF THAT INFORMATION WAS MADE PUBLIC EVERY DAY. THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS DESTROYED ANY ANALOGY, ANY LEGITIMATE ANALOGY TO A GRAND JURY BECAUSE THAT WAS ALL PUBLIC. THEY MADE NO SECRET THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS THE TARGET. THEY ISSUED VILE ACCOUNTS ABOUT HIM EVERY DAY. THEY DIDN’T KEEP THEIR INVESTIGATION SECRET. THEIR WITNESSES WERE PUBLISHED DAILY. THE DIRECTION OF THE INVESTIGATION WAS OPEN. AND THE TESTIMONY THAT TOOK PLACE WAS SELECTIVELY LEAKED TO A COMPLIANT MEDIA TO ESTABLISH A FALSE NARRATIVE ABOUT THE PRESIDENT. IF THAT SORT OF CONDUCT HAD OCCURRED IN A REAL GRAND JURY, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A CRIMINAL VIOLATION. PROSECUTORS CAN’T DO THAT. UNDER RULE 6-E OF THE FEDERAL CRIMINAL RULES, IT’S A CRIMINAL OFFENSE TO BE LEAKING WHAT TAKES PLACE IN A GRAND JURY. AND ALSO THE GRAND JURY EXPLANATION PROVIDES NO RATIONALE WHATSOEVER FOR THIS SECOND ROUND OF HEARINGS.REMEMBER, AFTER THE BASEMENT BUNKER, AFTER THE SECRET HEARINGS WHERE THE TESTIMONY WAS PRESCREENED, THEN THE SAME WITNESSES WHO HAD ALREADY BEEN DEPOSED WERE PUT ON IN A PUBLIC HEARING WHERE THE PRESIDENT WAS STILL EXCLUDED. ASK YOURSELF WHAT WAS THE REASON FOR THAT. IN EVERY PRIOR PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT IN THE MODERN ERA WHERE THERE HAVE BEEN PUBLIC HEARINGS, THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN REPRESENTED BY COUNSEL AND COULD CROSS-EXAMINE WITNESSES. WHY DID THERE HAVE TO BE PUBLIC TELEVISED HEARINGS WHERE THE PRESIDENT WAS EXCLUDED? THAT WAS NOTHING MORE THAN A SHOW TRIAL.NOW I ALSO ADDRESSED THE OTHER DAY THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ CONTENTION THAT THEY HAD OFFERED THE PRESIDENT DUE PROCESS. WHEN THINGS REACHED THE THIRD ROUND OF HEARINGS IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, MANAGER NADLER OFFERED THE PRESIDENT DUE PROCESS AND I EXPLAINED WHY THAT WAS ILLUSORY. THERE WAS NO GENERAL OFFER THERE BECAUSE BEFORE ANY HEARINGS BEFORE OTHER THAN THE LAW PROFESSOR SEMINAR, THE SPEAKER ALREADY DETERMINED THE OUTCOME, ALREADY SAID THERE WERE GOING TO BE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT, AND THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE HAD INFORMED THE COUNSEL’S OFFICE THAT THEY HAD NO PLANS TO CALL ANY FACT WITNESSES OR HAVE ANY FACTUAL HEARINGS WHATSOEVER. IT WAS ALL DONE, IT WAS LOCKED IN, IT WAS BAKED.AND THERE WAS SOMETHING ELSE HANGING OVER THAT WHEN THEY HAD OFFERED PURPORTEDLY TO ALLOW THE PRESIDENT SOME DUE PROCESS RIGHTS, AND THAT WAS A SPECIAL PROVISION IN THE RULES FOR THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS, ALSO UNPRECEDENTED, THAT ALLOWED THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE TO DENY THE PRESIDENT ANY DUE PROCESS RIGHTS AT ALL IF HE CONTINUED TO REFUSE TO TURN OVER DOCUMENTS OR NOT ALLOW WITNESSES TO TESTIFY. SO THAT IF THE PRESIDENT DIDN’T GIVE UP HIS PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES THAT HE HAD BEEN ASSERTING OVER EXECUTIVE BRANCH BRANCH CONFIDENTIALITY, IF HE DIDN’T COMPLY WITH WHAT THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS WANTED, THEN IT WAS UP TO CHAIRMAN NADLER POTENTIALLY TO SAY NO RIGHTS AT ALL. AND THERE’S A TERM FOR THAT IN THE LAW. IT’S CALLED AN UNCONSTITUTIONAL CONDITION. YOU CAN’T CONDITION SOMEONE’S EXERCISE OF SOME RIGHTS ON THEIR SURRENDERING OTHER CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.YOU CAN’T SAY, WE’LL LET YOU HAVE DUE PROCESS IN THIS WAY IF YOU WAIVE YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL PRIVILEGES ON ANOTHER ISSUE. THE LAST POINT I’LL MAKE ABOUT DUE PROCESS IS THIS. IT’S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT DUE PROCESS IS ENSHRINED IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS FOR A REASON. IT’S NOT THAT PROCESS IS JUST AN END IN ITSELF. INSTEAD, IT’S DEEP-SEEDED BELIEF IN OUR LEGAL SYSTEM THAT IT IS ESSENTIAL FOR ACCURATE DECISION-MAKING, THE CROSS-EXAMINATION OF WITNESSES IN PARTICULAR IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PROCEDURAL PROTECTIONS FOR ANY AMERICAN.THE SUPREME COURT HAS EXPLAINED THAT FOR OVER 250 YEARS OUR LEGAL TRADITION HAS RECOGNIZED CROSS-EXAMINATION AS THE GREATEST LEGAL ENGINE EVER DISCOVERED — EVER INVENTED FOR THE DISCOVERY OF TRUTH. SO WHY DID HOUSE DEMOCRATS JETTISON EVERY PRECEDENT AND EVERY PRINCIPLE OF DUE PROCESS IN THE WAY THEY DEVISE THESE HEARING PROCEDURES? WHY DID THEY DEVISE A PROCEDURE TO KEEP THE PRESIDENT LOCKED OUT OF THE 72 OF THE SO-CALLED 78 DAYS OF INVESTIGATION? I’D SUBMIT BECAUSE THE PROCESS WAS NEVER ABOUT FINDING THE TRUTH. IT WAS ABOUT DETERMINING A PREDETERMINED OUTCOME ON A TIMETABLE AND HAVING IT DONE BY CHRISTMAS AND THAT IS WHAT THEY ACHIEVED. NOW, THE THIRD FUNDAMENTAL DUE PROCESS ERROR IS THAT THE WHOLE FOUNDATION OF THESE PROCEEDINGS WAS ALSO TAINTED BEYOND REPAIR BECAUSE AN INTERESTED FACT WITNESS SUPERVISED AND LIMITED THE COURSE OF THE FACTUAL DISCOVERY, THE COURSE OF THE HEARINGS.AND I EXPLAINED THE OTHER DAY THAT MANAGER SCHIFF HAD A REASONABLE POTENTIALLY BECAUSE OF HIS OFFICE’S CONTACT WITH THE SO-CALLED WHISTLE-BLOWER AND WHAT WAS DISCUSSED AND HOW THE EXPLAIN THE WAS FRAMED, WHICH ALL REMAINED SECRET, TO LIMIT INQUIRY INTO THAT, WHICH WAS RELEVANT. THE WHISTLE-BLOWER BEGAN THIS WHOLE PROCESS, HIS BIAS, HIS MOTIVE, WHY HE WAS DOING IT. THAT’S RELEVANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT GENERATED THIS WHOLE PROCESS, BUT THERE WAS NO INQUIRY INTO THAT. SO WHAT CONCLUSION DOES THIS ALL LEAD TO, ALL OF THIS DUE PROCESS ERRORS THAT HAVE INFECTED THE PROCEEDING UP TO NOW? I THINK IT’S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THE RIGHT CONCLUSION IS NOT THAT THIS BODY, THIS CHAMBER SHOULD TRYING TO REDO EVERYTHING, TO START BRINGING IN NEW EVIDENCE, BRING IN WITNESSES BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT WASN’T ALLOWED WITNESSES BELOW AND REDOING THE WHOLE PROCESS. AND THAT’S FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS. ONE IS, FIRST, AS MY COLLEAGUES HAVE DEMONSTRATED, DESPITE THE ONE-SIDED UNFAIR PROCESS IN THE HOUSE, THE RECORD THAT THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS COLLECTED THROUGH THAT PROCESS ALREADY SHOWS THAT THE PRESIDENT DID NOTHING WRONG.IT ALREADY EXONERATES THE PRESIDENT. BUT THE SECOND AND MORE IMPORTANT REASON IS BECAUSE OF THE INSTITUTIONAL IMPLICATIONS IT WOULD HAVE FOR THIS CHAMBER. WHATEVER PRECEDENT IS SET, WHATEVER THIS BODY ACCEPTS NOW AS A PERMISSIBLE WAY TO BRING AND IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDING AND TO BRING IT TO THIS CHAMBER BECOMES THE NEW NORMAL. AND IF THE NEW NORMAL IS GOING TO BE THAT THERE CAN BE AN IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDING IN THE HOUSE THAT VIOLATES DUE PROCESS, THAT DOESN’T PROVIDE THE PRESIDENT OR ANOTHER OFFICIAL BEING IMPEACHED, DUE PROCESS RIGHTS, THAT FAILS TO CONDUCT A THOROUGH INVESTIGATION, THAT DOESN’T COME HERE WITH THE FACTS ESTABLISHED, THAT THEN THIS BODY SHOULD BECOME THE INVESTIGATORY BODY AND START REDOING WHAT THE HOUSE DIDN’T DO AND FINDING NEW WITNESSES AND DOING THINGS OVER AND GETTING NEW EVIDENCE. THEN THAT’S GOING TO BE THE NEW NORMAL AND THAT WILL BE WAY THIS CHAMBER HAS TO FUNCTION, AND THERE WILL BE A LOT MORE IMPEACHMENTS COMING BECAUSE IT’S A LOT EASIER TO DO AN IMPEACHMENT IF YOU DON’T HAVE TO FOLLOW DUE PROCESS AND YOU CAN COME HERE AND EXPECT THE SENATE TO DO THE WORK THAT THE HOUSE DIDN’T DO.I SUBMIT THAT IS NOT THE CONSTITUTIONAL FUNCTION OF THIS CHAMBER SITTING AS A COURT OF IMPEACHMENT, CONTINUE — THIS CHAMBER SHOULD NOT PUT THIS ON A PROCESS IN THE HOUSE IN THAT WOULD FORCE THIS CHAMBER TO TAKE ON THAT ROLE. NOW, I’LL MOVE ON TO THE CHARGE OF OBSTRUCTION IN THE SECOND ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT. ACCEPTING THAT ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT WOULD FUNDAMENTALLY DAMAGE THE SEPARATION OF POWERS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION BY PERMANENTLY ALTERING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE EXECUTIVE AND THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCHES. IN THE SECOND ARTICLE, HOUSE DEMOCRATS ARE TRYING TO IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT FOR RESISTING LEGALLY DEFECTIVE DEMANDS FOR INFORMATION BY ASSERTING ESTABLISHED LEGAL OFFENSES AND IMMUNITIES BASED ON LEGAL ADVICE FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE’S LEGAL COUNSEL. IN ESSENCE, THE APPROACH HERE IS THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS ARE SAYING, WHEN WE DEMAND DOCUMENTS, THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH MUST COMPLY IMMEDIATELY AND THE ASSERTIONS OF PRIVILEGE OR DEFENSES TO OUR SUBPOENAS ARE FURTHER EVIDENCE OF OBSTRUCTION.WE DON’T HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE CONSTITUTIONALLY MANDATED ACCOMMODATIONS PROCESS TO WORK OUT AN ACCEPTABLE SOLUTION WITH THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH. WE DON’T HAVE TO GO TO THE COURTS TO ESTABLISH THE VALIDITY OF OUR SUBPOENAS. AT ONE POINT MANAGER SCHIFF SAID THAT ANYTHING THAT MAKES THE HOUSE EVEN CONTEMPLATE LITIGATION IS EVIDENCE OF OBSTRUCTION, INSTEAD THE HOUSE CLAIMS IT CAN JUMP STRAIGHT TO IMPEACHMENT. WHAT THIS REALLY MEANS IN THIS CASE IS THAT THEY ARE SAYING FOR THE PRESIDENT TO DEFEND THE PREROGATIVES OF HIS OFFICE, TO DEFEND CONSTITUTIONALLY GROUNDED PRINCIPLES OF EXECUTIVE BRANCH PRINCIPLES OR IMMUNITIES IS AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE. IF THIS CHAMBER ACCEPTS THAT PREMISE, THAT WHAT HAS BEEN ASSERTED CONSTITUTES AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE, IT WILL FOREVER DAMAGE THE SEPARATION OF POWERS. IT WILL UNDERMINE THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE EXECUTIVE AND DESTROY THE BALANCE BETWEEN THE LEGISLATIVE AND EXECUTIVE BRANCHES THAT THE FRAMERS CRAFTED IN THE CONSTITUTION. AS PROFESSOR TURLEY TESTIFIED BEFORE THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, BASING IMPEACHMENT ON THIS OBSTRUCTION THEORY WOULD ITSELF BE AN ABUSE OF POWER BY CONGRESS.AND I’D LIKE TO GO THROUGH THAT AND UNPACK AND EXPLAIN SOME OF THAT. AND I’LL START BY OUTLINING THE THREE — WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ACTUALLY DID IN RESPONSE TO SUBPOENAS BECAUSE THERE ARE THREE DIFFERENT ACTIONS, THREE DIFFERENT LEGALLY BASED ASSERTIONS FOR RESISTING DIFFERENT SUBPOENAS THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION MADE. AND I POINTED OUT ON SATURDAY THERE HAS BEEN THIS CONSTANT REFRAIN FROM THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS THAT THERE WAS JUST BLANKET DEFIANCE, BLANKET OBSTRUCTION AS IF IT WERE UNEXPLAINED OBSTRUCTION JUST WE WON’T COOPERATE WITHOUT MORE. AND THAT’S NOT TRUE, THERE WERE VERY SPECIFIC LEGAL GROUNDS PROVIDED AND EACH ONE WAS SUPPORTED BY AN OPINION FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE’S OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL. SO THE FIRST IS EXECUTIVE BRANCH OFFICIALS DECLINED TO COMPLY WITH SUBPOENAS THAT HAD NOT BEEN AUTHORIZED.THAT’S THE POINT I MADE AT THE BEGINNING. THERE WAS NO VOTE FROM THE HOUSE. WITHOUT A VOTE FROM THE HOUSE, THE SUBPOENAS THAT WERE ISSUED WERE NOT AUTHORIZED. AND I POINTED OUT THAT IN AN OCTOBER 18 LETTER FROM THE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL THAT SPECIFIC GROUND WAS EXPLAINED. AND IT WASN’T JUST FROM THE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL. THERE WERE OTHER LETTERS. ON THE SCREEN NOW IS AN OCTOBER 15 LETTER FROM O.M.B. WHICH EXPLAINED, ABSENT A DELEGATION BY A HOUSE RULE OR A RESOLUTION OF THE HOUSE, NONE OF YOUR COMMITTEES HAS BEEN DELEGATED JURISDICTION TO CONDUCT AN INVESTIGATION PURSUANT TO THE IMPEACHMENT POWER UNDER ARTICLE 1, SECTION 2 OF THE CONSTITUTION. AND THE LETTER WENT ON TO EXPLAIN THAT LEGAL RATIONALE. NOT BLANKET DEFIANCE, THERE ARE SPECIFIC EXCHANGES OF LETTERS EXPLAINING THESE LEGAL GROUNDS FOR RESISTING. THE SECOND GROUND, THE SECOND PRINCIPLE THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ASSERTED WAS THAT SOME OF THESE SUBPOENAS PURPORTED TO REQUIRE THE PRESIDENT’S SENIOR ADVISORS, HIS CLOSE ADVISORS TO TESTIFY. FOLLOWING AT LEAST 50 YEARS OF PRECEDENT, THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE’S OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL ADVISED THAT THREE SENIOR ADVISORS TO THE PRESIDENT, ACTING WHITE HOUSE EEF CHIEF OF STAFF, THE DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR WERE ABSOLUTELY IMMUNE FROM COMPELLED CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY.BASED ON THAT ADVICE FROM THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL, THE PRESIDENT DIRECTED THOSE ADVISORS NOT TO TESTIFY. ADMINISTRATIONS OF BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES HAVE ASSERTED THIS IMMUNITY SINCE THE 1970’S. PRESIDENT OBAMA ASSERTED IT AS TO THE DIRECTOR OF POLITICAL STRATEGY AND OUTREACH, PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH ASSERTED IT AS TO HIS FORMER COUNSEL AND TO HIS WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF, PRESIDENT CLINTON ASSERTED IT AS TO TWO OF HIS COUNSELS, PRESIDENT REAGAN ASSERTED IT AS TO HIS COUNSEL FRED WIELDING. THIS WAS NOT SOMETHING MADE UP RECENTLY. THERE’S A DECADES LONG HISTORY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE PROVIDING AN OPINION THAT SENIOR ADVISORS FOR THE PRESIDENT ARE IMMUNE FROM COMPELLED TESTIMONY AND IT’S THE SAME PRINCIPLE THAT WAS ASSERTED HERE. AND THERE ARE IMPORTANT RATIONALES BETWEEN THIS IMMUNITY. ONE IS THE PRESIDENT’S SENIOR ADVISORS ARE ESSENTIALLY HIS ALTER EGOS AND ALLOWING CONGRESS TO HAVE THEM TESTIFY WOULD BE TAUNT MOUNT TO HAVING THE PRESIDENT COME TESTIFY. BUT THAT, UNDER THE SEPARATION OF POWERS, WOULD NOT BE TOLERABLE. CONGRESS COULD NO MORE DO THAN THAN THE PRESIDENT COULD FORCE MEMBERS OF THE CONGRESS TO COME TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND ANSWER HIM.THERE IS A SECOND RATIONALE BEHIND THIS IMMUNITY AND THAT RELATES TO EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE. THE IMMUNITY PROTECTS THE SAME INTEREST THAT UNDERLIE EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE. THE SUPREME COURT HAS RECOGNIZED EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE THAT PRODUCTS THE CONFIDENTIALITY OF COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE PRESIDENT AND DELIBERATIONS WITHIN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH IS, AS THE COURT PUT IT IN THE UNITED STATES VERSUS NIXON, THE PRIVILEGE IS FUNDAMENTAL TO THE OPERATION OF GOVERNMENT, AND INEXTRICABLY ROOTED IN THE SEPARATION OF POWERS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION. THE SUPREME COURT RECOGNIZED THE EXECUTIVE NEEDS THIS PLIJ TO BE ABLE TO FUNCTION ITS — PRIVILEGE TO BE ABLE TO FUNCTION ITS ROOTED FUNCTIONS. JANET RENO ADVISED PRESIDENT CLINTON, THE IMMUNITY SUCH ADVISORS ENJOY IS ABSOLUTE AND MAY NOT BE OVERBORNE BY COMPETING CONGRESSIONAL INTERESTS. THAT’S ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO AND PRESIDENT CLINTON. THIS IS NOT A PARTISAN ISSUE. THIS IS NOT A REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT ISSUE. ADMINISTRATIONS OF BOTH PARTIES ASSERT THIS IMMUNITY FOR SENIOR ADVISORS. AND WHY DOES IT MATTER? IT MATTERS BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT HAS EXPLAINED THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE BEHIND EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE IS THAT IT’S NECESSARY TO HAVE CONFIDENTIALITY AND COMMUNICATIONS AND DELIBERATIONS IN ORDER TO HAVE GOOD AND WORTHWHILE DELIBERATIONS, IN ORDER TO HAVE PEOPLE PROVIDE THEIR CANDID AT VICE TO THE PRESIDENT — ADVICE TO THE PRESIDENT.IF THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO SAY WOULD BE ON THE FRONT PAGE OF “THE WASHINGTON POST” THE NEXT DAY OR THE NEXT WEEK, THEY WOULDN’T TELL THE PRESIDENT WHAT THEY ACTUALLY THOUGHT. IF YOU WANT TO HAVE GOOD DECISION-MAKING, THERE HAS TO BE THAT ZONE OF CONFIDENTIALITY. AND THIS IS THE WAY THE SUPREME COURT PUT IT. QUOTE, HUMAN EXPERIENCE TEACHES THAT THOSE WHO EXPECT PUBLIC DISSEMINATION OF THEIR REMARKS MAY WELL TEMPER CANDOR FOR THEIR OWN INTERESTS TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE DECISION-MAKING PROCESS. END QUOTE. THAT WAS ALL FROM THE UNITED STATES VERSUS NIXON. SO THOSE ARE EXACTLY THE INTERESTS THAT ARE PROTECTED BY HAVING SENIOR ADVISORS TO THE PRESIDENT BE IMMUNE FROM COMPELLED CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY.ONCE SOMEONE IS COMPELLED TO SIT IN THE WITNESS SEAT AND START ANSWERING QUESTIONS, IT’S VERY HARD FOR THEM TO PROTECT THAT PRIVILEGE, TO MAKE SURE THEY DON’T START REVEALING SOMETHING THAT WAS DISCUSSED. SO FOR A SMALL CIRCLE OF THOSE CLOSE TO THE PRESIDENT FOR THE PAST 40 TO 50 YEARS, ADMINISTRATIONS OF BOTH PARTIES HAVE INSISTED ON THIS PRINCIPLE. NOW, THE OTHER NIGHT THE HOUSE MANAGERS, WHEN WE WERE HERE VERY LATE LAST WEEK, THEY SUGGESTED THAT EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE WAS A DISTRACTION, AND MANAGER NADLER CALLED IT NONSENSE. NOT AT ALL. IT IS A PRINCIPLE RECOGNIZED BY THE SUPREME COURT, A CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE GROUNDED IN THE SEPARATION OF POWERS. THEY ALSO ASSERTED THAT THIS IMMUNITY HAS BEEN REJECTED BY EVERY COURT THAT HAS ADDRESSED IT, AS IF TO MAKE IT SEEM THAT LOTS OF COURTS HAVE ADDRESSED THIS, THEY’VE ALL SAID THIS THEORY JUST DOESN’T FLY.THAT’S NOT ACCURATE. THAT’S NOT TRUE. IN FACT, IN MOST INSTANCES, ONCE THE PRESIDENT ASSERTS IMMUNITY FOR A SENIOR ADVISOR, THE ACCOMMODATIONS PROCESS BETWEEN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND THE LEGISLATOR BEGINS, AND THERE’S USUALLY SOME COMPROMISE TO ALLOW PERHAPS SOME TESTIMONY, NOT IN AN OPEN HEARING BUT IN A CLOSED HEARING OR DISPOSITION, PERHAPS PROVIDE SOME INFORMATION INSTEAD OF LIVE TESTIMONY, THERE’S A COMPROMISE. THE ONLY TWO TIMES IT’S BEEN LITIGATED, DISTRICT COURTS, IT IS TRUE, REJECTED THE IMMUNITY. ONE WAS IN A CASE INVOLVING FORMER COUNSEL TO PRESIDENT GEORGE GEORGE W.BUSH HARRIET MIERS, THE DISTRICT COURT REJECTED THE IMMUNITY, BUT IMMEDIATELY THE COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE D.C. CIRCUIT STAYED THAT DECISION AND — AND THAT DECISION MEANS TO STAY THAT DISTRICT COURT DECISION THAT THE APPELLATE COURT THOUGHT THERE THERE WAS A LIKELIHOOD OF SUCCESS ON APPEAL THAT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH MIGHT PROCEED OR AT A MINIMUM THE QUESTIONS GOING TO THE MERITS SO SERIOUS, SUBSTANTIAL, DIFFICULT, AND DOUBTFUL AS TO MAKE THEM A FAIRGROUND FOR LITIGATION. THE FIRST DECISION WAS STAYED. THE SECOND DISTRICT COURT DECISION IS STILL BEING LITIGATED RIGHT NOW. IT’S THE McGAHN CASE THAT THE HOUSE HAS BROUGHT TRYING TO GET TESTIMONY FROM FORMER COUNSEL TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, DONALD McGAHN. THAT CASE WAS JUST ARGUED IN THE D.C. CIRCUIT JANUARY 3. SO THERE IS NO ESTABLISHED LAW SUGGESTING THAT THIS IMMUNITY SOMEHOW HAS BEEN REJECTED BY THE COURTS. IT’S STILL BEING LITIGATED RIGHT NOW. AND IT IS AN IMMUNITY THAT IS A STANDARD PRINCIPLE ASSERTED BY EVERY ADMINISTRATION OF BOTH PARTIES FOR THE PAST FOUR YEARS.ASSERTING THAT PRINCIPLE CAN’T BE TREATED AS OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS. THE THIRD ACTION THAT THE PRESIDENT TOOK, THE ADMINISTRATION TOOK RELATED TO THE FACT THAT HOUSE DEMOCRATS’ SUBPOENAS TRIED TO SHUT OUT EXECUTIVE BRANCH COUNSEL, AGENCY COUNSEL FROM THE DEPOSITIONS OF EXECUTIVE BRANCH EMPLOYEES. NOW, THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL CONCLUDEED THE CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEES MAY NOT BAR AGENCY COUNSEL FROM ASSISTING AN EXECUTIVE BRANCH WITNESS WITHOUT CONTRAVENING THE LEGITIMATE PREROGATIVES OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, AND IN ATTEMPTING TO ENFORCE A SUBPOENA WHILE BARRING AGENCY COUNSEL, QUOTE, WOULD BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL. UNQUOTE. THE PRESIDENT RELIED ON THAT LEGAL ADVICE HERE. AS JUDGE STARR POINTED OUT, THE PRESIDENT WAS CONSULTING WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, RECEIVING ADVICE FROM THE VERY RESPECTED OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL, AND FOLLOWING THAT ADVICE ABOUT THE CONSTITUTIONAL PREROGATIVES OF HIS OFFICE AND THE CONSTITUTIONAL PREROGATIVES OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH. AGAIN, ADMINISTRATIONS OF BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES HAVE RECOGNIZED THE IMPORTANT ROLE THAT AGENCY COUNSEL PLAYS. IN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL STATED THAT EXCLUSION OF AGENCY COUNSEL, QUOTE, COULD POTENTIALLY UNDERMINE THE PRESIDENT’S CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY TO CONSIDER AND ASSERT EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE, WHERE APPROPRIATE.SO WHY IS AGENCY COUNSEL IMPORTANT? AS I TRIED TO EXPLAIN, THE EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE OF CONFIDENTIALITY FOR COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE PRESIDENT, FOR INTERNAL DELIBERATIVE COMMUNICATIONS OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, THOSE ARE IMPORTANT LEGAL RIGHTS. THEY’RE NECESSARY FOR THE PROPER FUNCTIONING OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH. AND THE AGENCY COUNSEL IS ESSENTIAL TO PROTECT THOSE LEGAL RIGHTS. WHEN AN INDIVIDUAL EMPLOYEE GOES IN TO TESTIFY, HE OR SHE MIGHT NOT KNOW, PROBABLY WOULD NOT KNOW WHERE IS THE LINE FOR WHAT IS COVERED BY EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE OR DELIBERATIVE PROCESS PRIVILEGE? NOT THINGS THAT EMPLOYEES NECESSARILY KNOW. AND THEIR PERSONAL COUNSEL, EVEN IF THEY ARE PERMITTED TO HAVE THEIR PERSONAL COUNSEL WITH THEM, SAME THING. MOST ATTORNEYS FOR PERSONAL — FOR EMPLOYEES DON’T KNOW THE FINER POINTS OF EXECUTIVE BRANCH CONFIDENTIALITY INTERESTS, OF DELIBERATIVE PROCESS PRIVILEGE, AND IT’S ALSO NOT THEIR JOB TO PROTECT THOSE INTERESTS.THEY’RE THE PERSONAL LAWYER FOR THE EMPLOYEE WHO’S TESTIFYING, TRYING TO PROTECT THAT EMPLOYEE FROM POTENTIAL LEGAL CONSEQUENCES. WE USUALLY HAVE LAWYERS TO PROTECT LEGAL RIGHTS, SO IT MAKES SENSE WHEN THERE IS AN IMPORTANT LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONALLY BASED RIGHT AT STAKE, THE EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE, THAT THERE SHOULD BE A LAWYER THERE TO PROTECT THAT RIGHT FOR THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, AND THAT’S THE PRINCIPLE THAT THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL ENDORSED. THIS ALSO DOESN’T RAISE ANY INSURMOUNTABLE PROBLEMS FOR CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATIONS OR FINDING INFORMATION. IN FACT, JUST AS RECENTLY AS APRIL, 2019, THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM REACHED AN ACCOMMODATION WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AFTER THE ADMINISTRATION HAD DECLINED TO MAKE SOMEONE AVAILABLE FOR A DEPOSITION BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF AGENCY COUNSEL, AND THAT ISSUE WAS WORKED OUT AND ACCOMMODATION WAS MADE, AND THERE WAS SOME TESTIMONY PROVIDED IN OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES. SO IT DOESN’T ALWAYS RESULT IN THE KIND OF ESCALATION THAT WAS SEEN HERE STRAIGHT TO IMPEACHMENT. THE ACCOMMODATION PROCESS CAN WORK THINGS OUT. HOUSE DEMOCRATS HAVE POINTED TO A HOUSE RULE THAT EXCLUDES AGENCY COUNSEL, BUT OF COURSE A HOUSE RULE CANNOT OVERRIDE A CONSTITUTIONAL PRIVILEGE.SO THOSE ARE THE THREE PRINCIPLES THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ASSERTED. NOW I’D LIKE TO TURN TO THE CLAIM THAT SOMEHOW THIS ASSERTION OF THESE PRINCIPLES CREATED AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE. THE IDEA THAT ASSERTING DEFENSES AND IMMUNITIES, LEGAL DEFENSES AND IMMUNITIES IN RESPONSE TO SUBPOENAS, ACTING ON ADVICE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE IS AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE IS ABSURD. AND IT IS DANGEROUS FOR OUR GOVERNMENT. LET ME EXPLAIN WHY. HOUSE DEMOCRATS’ OBSTRUCTION THEORY IS WRONG FIRST AND FOREMOST BECAUSE IN A GOVERNMENT OF LAWS, ASSERTING PRIVILEGES AND RIGHTS TO RESIST COMPULSION IS NOT OBSTRUCTION. IT’S A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT. IN BORDENKIRCHER VERSUS HAYES, IT SAYS TO PUNISH A PERSON BECAUSE HE HAS DONE WHAT THE LAW PLAINLY ALLOWS HIM TO DO IS A DUE PROCESS VIOLATION OF THE MOST BASIC SORT. THIS IS A PRINCIPLE THAT IN THE PAST, IN THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT, WAS RECOGNIZED ACROSS THE BOARD, THAT IT WOULD BE IMPROPER TO SUGGEST THAT ASSERTING RIGHTS IS AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE. HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR LAURENCE TRIBE SAID, QUOTE, THE ALLEGATION THAT INVOKING PRIVILEGES AND OTHERWISE USING THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM TO SHIELD INFORMATION IS AN ABUSE OF POWER THAT SHOULD LEAD TO IMPEACHMENT AND REMOVAL FROM OFFICE IS NOT ONLY FRIVOLOUS BUT ALSO DANGEROUS.AND MANAGER NADLER THEN SAID THAT THE USE OF A LEGAL PRIVILEGE IS NOT ILLEGAL OR IMPEACHABLE BY ITSELF, A LEGAL PRIVILEGE, EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE. AND MINORITY LEADER SCHUMER IN THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT EXPRESSED THE SAME VIEW. >> TO SUGGEST THAT ANY SUBJECT OF AN INVESTIGATION, MUCH LESS THE PRESIDENT, WITH OBLIGATIONS TO THE INSTITUTION OF THE PRESIDENCY IS ABUSING POWER AND INTERFERING WITH AN INVESTIGATION BY MAKING LEGITIMATE LEGAL CLAIMS USING DUE PROCESS AND ASSERTING CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS IS BEYOND SERIOUS CONSIDERATION.MR. PHILBIN: AND THAT WAS EXACTLY CORRECT THEN AND IT’S EXACTLY CORRECT NOW. NOW, MORE IMPORTANT THAN SIMPLY THE PRINCIPLE THAT ASSERTING RIGHTS CAN’T BE CONSIDERED OBSTRUCTION, WHEN THE RIGHTS THE PRESIDENT IS ASSERTING ARE BASED ON EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE, WHEN THEY ARE CONSTITUTIONALLY GROUNDED PRINCIPLES THAT ARE ESSENTIAL FOR THE SEPARATION OF POWERS AND PROTECTING THE INSTITUTION OF THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENCY, TO CALL THAT OBSTRUCTION, IS TO TURN THE CONSTITUTION ON ITS HEAD. DEFENDING THE SEPARATION OF POWERS CANNOT BE DEEMED AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE WITHOUT DESTROYING THE CONSTITUTION. ACCEPTING THAT APPROACH WILL DO PERMANENT DAMAGE TO THE SEPARATION OF POWERS, AND IT WOULD ALLOW THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TO TURN ANY DISAGREEMENT WITH THE EXECUTIVE OVER INFORMATIONAL DEMANDS INTO A SUPPOSED BASIS FOR REMOVING THE PRESIDENT FROM OFFICE. IT WOULD EFFECTIVELY CREATE FOR US THE VERY PARLIAMENTARY SYSTEM THAT THE FRAMERS SOUGHT TO AVOID BECAUSE BY MAKING ANY DEMAND FOR INFORMATION AND GOADING THE EXECUTIVE TO A REFUSAL AND TREATING THAT THEN AS IMPEACHABLE, THE HOUSE WOULD EFFECTIVELY BE ABLE TO FUNCTION WITH A NO CONFIDENCE VOTE POWER.NOW, THAT IS NOT THE FRAMERS’ DESIGN. THE LEGISLATIVE AND EXECUTIVE BRANCHES FREQUENTLY CLASH ON QUESTIONS OF CONSTITUTIONAL INTERPRETATION, INCLUDING ABOUT CONGRESSIONAL DEMANDS FOR INFORMATION. THESE CONFLICTS HAVE HAPPENED SINCE THE FOUNDING IN 1796, GEORGE WASHINGTON, FIRST PRESIDENT, RESISTED DEMANDS FROM CONGRESS FOR INFORMATION ABOUT THE NEGOTIATION OF THE JAY TREATY. AND THERE HAVE BEEN CONFLICTS BETWEEN THE EXECUTIVE AND THE CONGRESS IN VIRTUALLY EVERY ADMINISTRATION SINCE THEN ABOUT CONGRESSIONAL DEMANDS FOR INFORMATION. THE FOUNDING FATHERS EXPECTED THE BRANCHES TO HAVE THESE CONFLICTS. JAMES MADISON POINTED OUT THAT THE LEGISLATIVE, EXECUTIVE, AND JUDICIAL DEPARTMENTS MUST, IN THE EXERCISE OF THEIR FUNCTIONS, BE GUIDED BY THE TEXT OF THE CONSTITUTION, ACCORDING TO ITS OWN INTERPRETATION OF IT, EACH ACCORDING TO ITS OWN INTERPRETATION OF IT.IT WAS RECOGNIZED THAT THERE WOULD BE FRICTION. SIMILARLY, IN FEDERALIST 51, MADISON POINTED OUT THAT THE GREAT SECURITY AGAINST A GRADUAL CONCENTRATION OF THE SEVERAL POWERS IN THE SAME DEPARTMENT CONSISTS IN GIVING TO THOSE WHO ADMINISTER EACH DEPARTMENT THE NECESSARY CONSTITUTIONAL MEANS AND PERSONAL MOTORISTS TO RESIST ENCROACHMENT OF THE OTHERS. THIS IS CHECKS AND BALANCES. THIS FRICTION, THIS CLASHING BETWEEN THE BRANCHES. IT IS NOT EVIDENCE OF AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE. IT’S THE SEPARATION OF POWERS IN ITS PRACTICAL OPERATION. IT’S PART OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL DESIGN. NOW, THE PROPER AND HISTORICALLY ACCEPTED WAY THAT THESE DISAGREEMENTS HAVE BEEN RESOLVED IS THROUGH THE CONSTITUTIONALLY MANDATED ACCOMMODATIONS PROCESS. COURTS HAVE EXPLAINED THAT THE BRANCHES ARE REQUIRED TO ENGAGE IN AN ACCOMMODATIONS PROCESS TO RESOLVE DISAGREEMENTS WHERE THERE IS A CLASH OVER A DEMAND FOR INFORMATION. AS THE D.C. CIRCUIT HAS EXPLAINED, WHEN CONGRESS ASKS FOR INFORMATION FROM THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, THAT TRIGGERS, QUOTE, AN IMPLICIT CONSTITUTIONAL MANDATE TO SEEK OPTIMAL ACCOMMODATION OF THE NEEDS OF THE CONFLICTING BRANCHES, END QUOTE.THE GOAL IS TO ACCOMMODATE THE NEEDS OF BOTH BRANCHES TO REACH A COMPROMISE. IF THAT ACCOMMODATION PROCESS FAILS, CONGRESS HAS OTHER TOOLS AT ITS DISPOSAL TO ADDRESS A DISAGREEMENT. THE HOUSE TRADITIONALLY HAS PROCEEDED TO CONTEMPT, TO VOTE ON A CONTEMPT RESOLUTION. IN RECENT TIMES, THE HOUSE HAS TAKEN THE POSITION THAT IT MAY SUE IN THE COURTS TO DETERMINE THE VALIDITY OF ITS SUBPOENAS AND SECURE AN INJUNCTION TO ENFORCE THEM. NOW, THE HOUSE MANAGERS HAVE POINTED OUT THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHEN IT WAS SUED IN THE McGAHN CASE AND OTHER CASES, HAS TAKEN THE VIEW THAT THOSE CASES ARE NOT JUDICIABLE. THAT WAS THE VIEW IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION. I THINK HOUSE MANAGERS ARE MISSING THE POINT WHEN THEY IDENTIFY THAT POSITION THAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS TAKEN. BECAUSE THE HOUSE CANNOT CLAIM THAT THEY HAVE A MECHANISM FOR GOING TO COURT. THEY’RE IN COURT RIGHT NOW ASSERTING THAT MECHANISM IN THE McGAHN CASE. AND THEN SIMULTANEOUSLY CLAIM THAT, WELL, THEY DON’T HAVE TO BOTHER WITH THAT MECHANISM.THEY CAN JUMP STRAIGHT TO IMPEACHMENT. IMPEACHMENT UNDER THE CONSTITUTION IS THE THERMONUCLEAR WEAPON OF INTERBRANCH FRICTION, AND WHERE THERE IS SOMETHING LIKE A RIFLE OR A BAZOOKA AT THE HOUSE’S DISPOSAL TO ADDRESS SOME FRICTION WITH THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, THAT IS THE NEXT STEP. IT IS INCREMENTALISM IN THE CONSTITUTION, NOT JUMPING STRAIGHT TO IMPEACHMENT, THAT IS THE SOLUTION. IF THE HOUSE COULD JUMP STRAIGHT TO IMPEACHMENT, THAT WOULD ALTER THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE BRANCHES. IT WOULD SUGGEST THAT THE HOUSE COULD MAKE ITSELF SUPERIOR OVER THE EXECUTIVE, DANGLE THE THREAT OF IMPEACHMENT OVER ANY DEMAND FOR INFORMATION MADE TO THE EXECUTIVE.THAT’S CONTRARY TO THE FRAMERS’ PLAN. MADISON EXPLAINED THAT WHERE THE EXECUTIVE AND THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCHES COME INTO CONFLICT — THIS IS IN FEDERALIST 49 — HE SAID, QUOTE, NEITHER OF THEM, IT IS EVIDENT, CAN PORTEND TO AN EXCLUSIVE OR SUPERIOR RIGHT OF SETTLING THE BOUNDARIES BETWEEN THEIR RESPECTIVE POWERS, END QUOTE. BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE HOUSE MANAGERS HAVE ASSERTED IN THIS CASE. THEY HAVE SAID THAT THE HOUSE BECOMES SUPREME. THERE IS NO NEED FOR THEM TO GO TO COURT. THE EXECUTIVE MUST BE WRONG. ANY RESISTANCE TO THEIR SUBPOENA IS OBSTRUCTION. IF YOU CLAIM THEIR SUBPOENA IS INVALID, WE DON’T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING TO ADDRESS THAT CONCERN. WE WILL JUST IMPEACH YOU BECAUSE RESISTANCE IS OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS. AND THE HOUSE COMMITTEE EVEN PUT IT THIS WAY IN THEIR REPORT.THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, THEY SAID THAT THE HOUSE ITSELF — THEY EFFECTIVELY HAVE SAID THAT THE HOUSE IS THE JUDGE OF ITS OWN POWERS BECAUSE WHAT THEY SAID IS, QUOTE, THE CONSTITUTION GIVES THE HOUSE THE FINAL WORD, END QUOTE. THAT’S ON PAGE 154 OF THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE REPORT. AND WHAT THAT IS ESSENTIALLY SAYING, THEY POINT TO THE FACT THAT ARTICLE 1, SECTION 2 GIVES THE HOUSE THE SOLE POWER OF IMPEACHMENT, AND THEY CLAIM THAT BECAUSE IT’S THE SOLE POWER OF IMPEACHMENT, COURTS HAVE NO ROLE, THE HOUSE IS THE FINAL WORD, IT’S THE JUDGE OF ITS OWN POWERS.BUT THAT’S CONTRARY TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL DESIGN. THERE IS NO POWER THAT IS UNCHECKED IN THE CONSTITUTION. THE SOLE POWER OF IMPEACHMENT GIVEN TO THE HOUSE SIMPLY MEANS THAT THAT POWER IS GIVEN SOLELY TO THE HOUSE, NOT ANYWHERE ELSE. THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT SAY THAT THE POWER OF IMPEACHMENT IS A PARAMOUNT POWER THAT MAKES ALL OTHER CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES AND PREROGATIVES OF THE OTHER BRANCHES FALL AWAY. THE FRAMERS RECOGNIZED THAT THERE COULD BE PARTISAN IMPEACHMENTS, THERE COULD BE IMPEACHMENTS FOR THE WRONG REASONS, AND THEY DID NOT STRIP THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH OF ANY OF ITS MEANS FOR PROTECTING ITS OWN SPHERE OF AUTHORITY, ITS OWN PREROGATIVES UNDER THE CONSTITUTION. THOSE PRINCIPLES OF EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE, THOSE IMMUNITIES STILL SURVIVE, EVEN IN THE CONTEXT OF IMPEACHMENT. THE POWER OF IMPEACHMENT IS NOT LIKE THE HOUSE CAN SIMPLY FLIP A SWITCH AND SAY NOW WE’RE IN IMPEACHMENT AND THEY HAVE CONSTITUTIONAL KRYPTONITE THAT MAKES THE POWERS OF THE EXECUTIVE ELIMINATEED. SO WHEN THERE ARE THESE CONFLICTS, EVEN IN THE CONTEXT OF AN IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY, THE EXECUTIVE CAN CONTINUE TO ASSERT ITS PRIVILEGES AND PREROGATIVES UNDER THE CONSTITUTION, AND INDEED IT MUST IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE INSTITUTIONAL INTERESTS OF THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENCY AND TO PRESERVE THE PROPER BOUNDS BETWEEN THE BRANCHES UNDER THE CONSTITUTION.PROFESSOR TURLEY RIGHTLY POINTED OUT THAT BY CLAIMING CONGRESS CAN DEMAND ANY TESTIMONY OR DOCUMENTS AND THEN IMPEACH ANY PRESIDENT WHO DARES TO GO TO THE COURTS, HOUSE DEMOCRATS WERE ADVANCING A POSITION THAT WAS, QUOTE, ENTIRELY UNTENABLE AND ABUSIVE OF AN IMPEACHMENT, END QUOTE. OTHER SCHOLARS AGREE. IN THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT PROFESSOR SUSAN LOWE BLOCK TESTIFIED IMPEACHING A PRESIDENT FOR PROTECTING LAWFUL PRIVILEGES IS A DANGEROUS AND OMINOUS PRECEDENT. END QUOTE. IT WOULD ACHIEVE EXACTLY THE RESULT THAT ONE OF THE FRAMERS WARNED AGAINST AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION. HE EXPLAINED THAT, QUOTE, WHEN WE MAKE HIM — REFERRING TO THE PRESIDENT — AMENABLE TO JUSTICE, HOWEVER, WE SHOULD TAKE CARE TO PROVIDE SOME MODE THAT WILL NOT MAKE HIM DEPENDENT ON THE LEGISLATURE, END QUOTE. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THIS ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT WOULD DO. IT WOULD MAKE THE PRESIDENT DEPENDENT ON THE LEGISLATURE, BECAUSE ANY DEMAND FOR INFORMATION MADE BY CONGRESS COULD BE USED AS THE THREAT OF IMPEACHMENT TO ENFORCE COMPLIANCE BY THE EXECUTIVE. AND THE VERY THEORY THAT THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS HAVE ASSERTED IS THAT THERE CAN BE NO ASSERTIONS OF PRIVILEGES, NO CONSTITUTIONALLY BASED PREROGATIVES TO STAND IN THE WAY. IF THAT THEORY WERE TRUE, VIRTUALLY EVERY PRESIDENT COULD HAVE BEEN IMPEACHED.VIRTUALLY EVERY PRESIDENT HAS ASSERTED AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER THESE CONSTITUTIONAL PREROGATIVES. PRESIDENT OBAMA FAMOUSLY IN THE FAST AND FURIOUS INVESTIGATION REFUSED TO TURN OVER DOCUMENTS THAT LED TO HIS ATTORNEY GENERAL BEING HELD IN CONTEMPT. BUT THAT DIDN’T LEAD TO IMPEACHMENT. AND THERE COULD BE A LONG LIST, PROFESSOR TURLEY TESTIFIED THERE COULD BE A VERY LONG LIST OF PRESIDENTS WHO WOULD HAVE TO BE DISTINGUISHED IF THE PRINCIPLES BEING ASSERTED NOW IN THIS CASE WERE APPLIED TO ALL PAST PRESIDENTS IN HISTORY. NOW HOUSE DEMOCRATS HAVE GIVEN A FEW DIFFERENT JUSTIFICATIONS FOR THIS APPROACH.BUT I WOULD SUBMIT NONE CAN BE RECONCILED WITH THE CONSTITUTION. THEY SAY IF WE CANNOT IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT FOR THIS OBSTRUCTION, THEN THE PRESIDENT IS ABOVE THE LAW. NOT SO. AS I THINK I’VE POINTED OUT, THE PRESIDENT IS STAYING WITHIN THE LAW, ASSERTING THE LAW, RELYING ON THE LEGAL ADVICE FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO MAKE HIS ARGUMENTS BASED ON LONG-RECOGNIZED CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLES. INDEED IS MAKING THE FUNDAMENTAL POINT WITH RESPECT TO THE SUBPOENAS THAT IT IS CONGRESS THAT IS NOT ABOVE THE LAW. IT’S THE HOUSE. THE HOUSE HAS TO FOLLOW THE LAW AS WELL, HAS TO ISSUE VALID SUBPOENAS. AND IF THE LAW ISN’T FOLLOWED, THOSE SUBPOENAS ARE NULL AND VOID, AND THE EXECUTIVE DOESN’T HAVE TO COMPLY WITH THEM. THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS SAY THAT THEY SHOULDN’T GO TO THE COURTS BECAUSE THE COURTS HAVE NO ROLE IN IMPEACHMENT. I THINK I POINTED OUT THAT THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS CAN’T SAY THAT THEY HAVE, JUST BECAUSE OF THE PROVISION OF THE SOLE POWER OF IMPEACHMENT, THAT IT’S THE PARAMOUNT POWER AND NO OTHER BRANCH PLAYS ANY ROLE IN PROVIDING A CHECK ON HOW THAT POWER IS EXERCISED.AND IN ADDITION, THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS HAVE GONE TO COURT. IN THE McGAHN CASE THAT THEY’RE LITIGATING RIGHT NOW, THEY HAVE ASSERTED THAT THAT IS PART OF THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY. THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS EXPLAINED THAT IT WAS NOT VALIDLY PART OF THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY, BULB THAT IS THE GROUND ON — BUT THAT IS THE GROUND ON WHICH THEY ARE LITIGATING. THEY SAY THAT THEY HAVE NO TIME FOR THE COURTS.I THINK WHAT THAT REALLY MEANS IS THEY HAVE NO TIME FOR THE RULE OF LAW AND THE WAY THAT THEY’RE PURSUING THE INQUIRY. THE OTHER DAY ONE OF THE HOUSE MANAGERS ACTUALLY SAID ON THE FLOOR OF THE SENATE THAT THEY HAD TO GET MOVING, THEY COULDN’T WAIT FOR LITIGATION BECAUSE THEY HAD TO IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT BEFORE THE ELECTION. THAT’S NOT A VALID REASON TO NOT PURSUE LITIGATION IN THE COURTS. I THINK IT’S RELEVANT TO BEAR IN MIND WHAT SORT OF DELAY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT. IN THE McGAHN CASE THAT THE HOUSE MANAGERS REFERRED TO A NUMBER OF TIMES, WHICH THEY HAD POINTED OUT THEY PRESENTED AS BEING VERY LONG AND DRAWN OUT, THEY ISSUED A SUBPOENA IN APRIL, BUT THEY DID NOT FILE A LAWSUIT UNTIL AUGUST.BY NOVEMBER, NOVEMBER 25, THEY HAD A DECISION FROM THE DISTRICT COURT AND IT WAS ARGUED ON APPEAL IN THE D.C. CIRCUIT ON JANUARY 3. FOR LITIGATION, THAT’S PRETTY FAST. AND IT CAN GO FASTER. IN THE NIXON CASE, DURING WATERGATE, THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR ISSUED A SUBPOENA ON APRIL 18, 1974. ON MAY 20 — SO IN LESS THAN A MONTH — THE DISTRICT COURT DENIED A MOTION TO QUASH THE SUBPOENA. ON MAY 31 THE SUPREME COURT AGREED TO HEAR THE CASE IN THE COURT OF APPEALS. AND ON JULY 24 THE SUPREME COURT ISSUED ITS DECISION. THAT’S LIGHTNING FAST. SO WHEN THE, THERE IS URGENCY TO THE CASE, WHEN THERE’S A REASON FOR IT, THERE CAN BE EXPEDITION IN THE COURTS AND A DECISION CAN BE HAD IN A TIMELY MANNER. IN THE ONE CASE THAT ACTUALLY AROSE FROM THESE IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDINGS, IT WAS THE HOUSE THAT DERAILED THE CASE. THIS WAS THE CASE INVOLVING DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR CHARLIE KUPPERMAN BECAUSE WHEN HE RECEIVED A SUBPOENA, HE WENT TO COURT AND ASKED THE COURT FOR A DECLARATORY JUDGMENT EXPLAINING WHAT HIS OBLIGATIONS WERE, SHOULD HE TAKE THE DIRECTIVE FROM THE PRESIDENT THAT HE WAS IMMUNE AND NOT GO, OR SHOULD HE OBEY THE SUBPOENA? IN THAT CASE HE FILED SUIT ON OCTOBER 25.THE COURT WITHIN A FEW DAYS SET AN EXPEDITED BRIEFING SCHEDULE, BUT THE HOUSE WITHDREW THE SUBPOENA ON NOVEMBER 5, JUST 11 DAYS LATER, IN ORDER TO MOOT THE CASE. SO I THINK LITIGATION IS A VIABLE AVENUE, ALONG WITH THE ACCOMMODATION PROCESS AS A FIRST STEP, THEN IF THE HOUSE BELIEVES IT CAN GO TO COURT AND WANTS TO LITIGATE THE JURISDICTION AND LITIGATE THE VALIDITY OF ITS SUBPOENAS, THAT’S ALSO AVAILABLE TO THEM. BUT IMPEACHMENT AS THE FIRST STEP DOESN’T MAKE ANY SENSE. AND I SHOULD POINT OUT IN PART WHEN THE HOUSE MANAGERS SAY THEY DIDN’T HAVE TIME TO LITIGATE, THEY DIDN’T HAVE TIME TO GO TO THE COURTS, BUT THEY NOW COME TO THIS CHAMBER AND SAY THIS CHAMBER SHOULD ISSUE SOME MORE SUBPOENAS, THIS CHAMBER SHOULD GET SOME WITNESSES THAT WE DIDN’T BOTHER TO THE FIGHT ABOUT, WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN THEN? THAT THERE WON’T BE SIMILAR ASSERTIONS OF PRIVILEGE AND IMMUNITY? THERE WOULDN’T BE LITIGATION ABOUT THAT? AGAIN, THIS GOES BACK TO THE POINT THAT I MADE.IF YOU PUT YOUR IMPRIMATUR ON A PROCESS THAT WAS BROKEN AND SAY, YES, THAT WAS A GREAT WAY TO RUN THINGS, THIS WAS A GREAT PACKAGE TO BRING HERE AND WE’LL CLEAN UP THE MESS AND ISSUE SUBPOENAS AND TRY TO DO ALL THE WORK THAT WASN’T DONE, THEN THAT BECOMES THE NEW NORMAL. AND THAT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE FOR THIS BODY. THE PROPER WAY TO HAVE THINGS HANDLED IS TO HAVE THE HOUSE, IF IT WANTS TO BRING AN IMPEACHMENT HERE READY FOR TRIAL, IT HAS TO DO THE INVESTIGATION. THE INFORMATION IT WANTS TO GET, IF THERE’S GOING TO BE RESISTANCE, THAT HAS TO BE RESOLVED, AND IT HAS TO BE READY TO PROCEED. NOT TRANSFER THE RESPONSIBILITY TO THIS CHAMBER TO DO THE WORK THAT HASN’T BEEN DONE.THEY ALSO ASSERT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP’S ASSERTION OF THESE PRIVILEGES IS SOMEHOW DIFFERENT BECAUSE IT’S UNPRECEDENTED AND ITS CATEGORICAL. WELL, IT’S UNPRECEDENTED PERHAPS IN THE SENSE THAT THERE WAS A BROAD STATEMENT THAT A LOT OF SUBPOENAS WOULDN’T BE COMPLIED WITH. BUT THAT’S BECAUSE IT WAS UNPRECEDENTED FOR THE HOUSE TO BEGIN THESE PROCEEDINGS WITHOUT VOTING TO AUTHORIZE A COMMITTEE TO ISSUE THE SUBPOENAS. THAT WAS THE FIRST UNPRECEDENTED STEP. THAT’S WHAT HAD NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE IN HISTORY. SO OF COURSE THE RESPONSE TO THAT WOULD BE IN SOME SENSE UNPRECEDENTED. AND THE PRESIDENT SIMPLY POINTED OUT THAT WITHOUT THAT VOTE, THERE WERE NO VALID SUBPOENAS. AND THERE HAVE ALSO BEEN CATEGORICAL REFUSALS IN THE PASS. PRESIDENT TRIEWM — TRUMAN ISSUED A SUBPOENA TO HIS ADMINISTRATION, TO THE ENTIRE EXECUTIVE BRANCH THAT ANY SUBPOENA, DEMAND, REQUEST FOR INFORMATION, REPORTS OR FILES OF THE NATURE DESCRIBED IN THOSE SUBPOENAS SHALL BE RESPECTFULLY DECLINED ON THE BASIS OF THIS DIRECTIVE.AND HE REFERRED ALL SUCH INQUIRIES TO THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT FOR SUCH RESPONSE AS THE PRESIDENT MAY DETERMINE TO BE IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST. THE TRUMAN ADMINISTRATION RESPONDED TO 911 OF THEM. — RESPONDED TO NONE OF THEM. A LAST POINT ON THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS’ CLAIM THAT THE PRIVILEGES SIMPLY DISAPPEARED BECAUSE THIS IS IMPEACHMENT POWER OF THE HOUSE. THEY HAVE REFERRED A NUMBER OF TIMES TO THE UNITED STATES VS. NIXON, THE SUPREME COURT DECISION, SUGGESTING THAT SOMEHOW DETERMINES THAT WHEN YOU’RE IN AN IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY, EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE FALLS AWAY. THAT’S NOT TRUE.IN FACT, THE UNITED STATES VS. NIXON WAS NOT ADDRESSING A CONGRESSIONAL SUBPOENA. IT WAS A SUBPOENA FROM THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR. AND EVEN IN THAT CONTEXT, THE COURT DID NOT SAY THAT EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE SIMPLY DISAPPEARS. INSTEAD THE COURT SAID, QUOTE, IT IS NECESSARY TO RESOLVE THESE COMPETING INTERESTS, THEY ARE THE INTERESTS OF THE JUDICIAL BRANCH, IN ADMINISTERING A CRIMINAL PROSECUTION CASE WHERE THE EVIDENCE WAS NEEDED. THESE COMPETING INTERESTS IN A MANNER THAT PRESERVE THE ESSENTIAL FUNCTIONS OF EACH BRANCH. AND IT EVEN HELD OUT THE POSSIBILITY THAT IN THE FIELD OF FOREIGN RELATIONS AND NATIONAL SECURITY, THERE MIGHT BE SOMETHING APPROACHING AN ABSOLUTE EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE. THAT’S EXACTLY THE FIELD THAT WE’RE IN IN THIS CASE, FOREIGN RELATIONS AND NATIONAL SECURITY MATTERS. ANOTHER THING YOU’VE HEARD IS THAT PRESIDENT CLINTON VOLUNTARILY COOPERATED WITH THE INVESTIGATION THAT LED TO HIS IMPEACHMENT, PRODUCED TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOCUMENTS.BUT THAT’S NOT REALLY ACCURATE. THAT WAS ONLY AFTER LONG LITIGATION AGAIN AND AGAIN ABOUT ASSERTIONS OF PRIVILEGE. HE ASSERTED NUMEROUS PRIVILEGES. THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE THEN EXPLAINED, QUOTE, DURING THE LEWINSKY INVESTIGATION, PRESIDENT CLINTON ABUSED HIS POWER THROUGH REPEATED FRIVOLOUS ASSERTIONS TO EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE BY IT AT LEAST FIVE OF HIS AIDES, END QUOTE. UNLIKE THE HOUSE IN THIS CASE, INDEPENDENT COUNSEL STARR FIRST NEGOTIATED WITH THE PROWESS AND THEN LITIGATED — WITH THE WHITE HOUSE AND LITIGATED THOSE CLAIMS AND GOT THEM RESOLVED. ULTIMATELY THE HOUSE MANAGERS ARGUE THAT ALL OF THE PROBLEMS WITH THEIR OBSTRUCTION THEORY SHOULD BE BRUSHED ASIDE AND THE PRESIDENT’S ASSERTIONS OF I IMMUNITIES AND DEFENSES HAVE TO BE TREATED AS SOMETHING NEFARIOUS BECAUSE, AS MR.NADLER PUT IT, ONLY GUILTY PEOPLE TRY TO HIDE THE EVIDENCE. THAT’S WHAT HE SAID LAST TUESDAY NIGHT. MR. SCHIFF SIMILARLY SAID, IN DISCUSSING THE ASSERTION OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH’S CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, THAT, QUOTE, THE INNOCENT DO NOT ACT THIS WAY, END QUOTE. REALLY? IS THAT THE PRINCIPLE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, THAT IF YOU ASSERT LEGAL PRIVILEGES OR RIGHTS, THAT MEANS YOU’RE GUILTY? THAT THE INNOCENT DON’T ASSERT THEIR RIGHTS? THAT THE PRESIDENT CAN’T DEFEND THE CONSTITUTIONAL PREROGATIVES OF HIS OFFICE? THAT DOESN’T MAKE ANY SENSE.AT BOTTOM, THE SECOND ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT COMES DOWN TO A DISPUTE OVER A LEGAL ISSUE RELATING TO CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITS ON THE ABILITY OF THE HOUSE TO COMPEL INFORMATION FROM THE EXECUTIVE. NO MATTER HOW HOUSE DEMOCRATS TRY TO DRESS UP THEIR CHARGES, A DIFFERENCE OF LEGAL OPINION DOES NOT RISE TO THE LEVEL OF IMPEACHMENT. UNTIL NOW THE HOUSE HAS REPEATEDLY REJECTED ATTEMPTS TO IMPEACH PRESIDENTS BASED ON LEGAL DISPUTES OR ASSERTIONS OF PRIVILEGE. AS JUDGE STARR POINTED OUT, IN THE CLINTON PROCEEDING THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE CONCLUDED THE PRESIDENT IMMORAL EXERCISED EXECUTIVE — IMPROPERLY EXERCISED EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE YET STILL CONCLUDED IT DID NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO SECOND-GUESS THE RATIONALE BEHIND THE PRESIDENT OR WHAT WAS IN HIS MIND ASSERTING EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE AND COULD NOT TREAT THAT AS AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE. IT REJECTED AN ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT BASED ON CLINTON’S ASSERTIONS OF PRIVILEGE. AND AS THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS’ OWN WITNESS, PROFESSOR GERHARDT, HAS EXPLAINED, IN 1843, PRESIDENT TYLER SIMILARLY WAS INVESTIGATED FOR A POTENTIAL IMPEACHMENT. HIS ATTEMPTS TO PROTECT AND ASSERT WHAT HE REGARDED AS THE PREROGATIVES OF HIS OFFICE AS HE RESISTED DEMANDS FOR INFORMATION FROM CONGRESS, PROFESSOR GERHARDT EXPLAINED THE ATTEMPTS TO PRESERVE THE PREROGATIVES OF HIS OFFICE WERE THE FUNCTION OF HIS CONSTITUTIONAL AND POLICY JUSSMENTS AND THEY COULD NOT — JUDGMENTS AND THEY COULD NOT BE USED BY CONGRESS TO IMPEACH HIM.PRESIDENT TRUMP’S RESISTANCE TO CONGRESSIONAL SUBPOENAS WAS NO LESS A FUNCTION OF HIS CONSTITUTIONAL AND POLICY JUDGMENTS AND PROVIDES NO BASIS TO IMPEACH HIM. I’D LIKE TO CLOSE WITH A FINAL THOUGHT. ONE OF THE GREATEST ISSUES AND PERHAPS THE GREATEST ISSUE FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION IN THIS CASE IS HOW THE PRECEDENT SET IN THIS CASE WILL AFFECT THE FUTURE. THE FRAMERS RECOGNIZED THAT THERE WOULD BE PARTISAN AND ILLEGITIMATE IMPEACHMENTS.HAMILTON EXPRESSLY WARNED IN FEDERALIST NUMBER 65 ABOUT IMPEACHMENTS THAT REFLECTED WHAT HE CALLED, QUOTE, THE PERSECUTION OF AN INTEMPERATE OR DESIGNING MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. END QUOTE. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THIS CASE PRESENTS. AND JUSTICE STORY RECOGNIZED THAT THE SENATE PROVIDED THE PROBLEM TRIBUNAL FOR TRYING IMPEACHMENTS BECAUSE IT WAS BELIEVED BY THE FRAMERS TO HAVE A GREATER SENSE OF OBLIGATION TO THE FUTURE, TO FUTURE GENERATIONS, NOT TO BE SWAYED BY THE PASSIONS OF THE MOMENT. AND ONE OF THE ESSENTIAL QUESTIONS HERE IS WILL THIS CHAMBER ADOPT A STANDARD FOR IMPEACHMENT, A DELUDED STANDARD THAT FUNDAMENTALLY DISRUPTS DAMAGES, ALTERS THE SEPARATION OF POWERS IN OUR CONSTITUTIONAL STRUCTURE OF GOVERNMENT. BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT BOTH THE FIRST ARTICLE FOR REASONS THAT JUDGE STARR AND PROFESSOR DERSHOWITZ HAVE COVERED AND THE SECOND ARTICLE, THE OBSTRUCTION CHARGE WOULD DO.AND SO I’LL CLOSE JUST WITH A QUOTATION FROM ONE OF THE REPUBLICAN SENATORS WHO CROSSED THE AISLE AND VOTED AGAINST CONVICTING PRESIDENT ANDREW JOHNSON DURING HIS IMPEACHMENT TRIAL, LYMON TRUMP BALANCE WHO EXPLAINED THE GREAT PRINCIPLE THAT APPLIES HERE. HE SAID, QUOTE, ONCE WE SET THE EXAMPLE OF IMPEACHING A PRESIDENT FOR WHAT WHEN — WHAT WHEN THE EXCITEMENT OF THE HOUR SHALL HAVE SUBSIDED WILL BE REGARDED AS INSUFFICIENT CAUSES, NO FUTURE PRESIDENT WILL BE SAFE. AND WHAT THEN BECOMES OF THE CHECKS AND BALANCES OF THE CONSTITUTION SO CAREFULLY DEVISED AND SO VITAL TO ITS PERPETUITY.THEY ARE ALL GONE. THANK YOU, MR. CHIEF JUSTICE. I’LL YIELD TO MR. SEKULOW. MR. SEKULOW: MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, HOUSE MANAGERS, MR. PHILBIN TALKED ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE — JUST CONCLUDED ON THE IMPORTANCE OF EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE. PROFESSOR TURLY WHO TESTIFIED BEFORE THE HOUSE SAID WE HAVE THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT, NOT TWO. IF YOU MAKE A HIGH CRIME AND MISDEMEANOR ABOUT GOING TO COURT, IT ISN’T ABUSE OF POWER. IT’S YOUR ABUSE OF POWER. WITH REGARD TO EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE, IT WAS MR. NADLER WHO SAID — CALLED IT EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE AND OTHER NONSENSE. WHEN ATTORNEY GENERAL HOLDER REFUSED TO COMPLY WITH PRESIDENT OBAMA AND INVOKED EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE ARGUING, AND I QUOTE, COMPELLED DISCLOSURE WOULD BE INCONSISTENT WITH THE SEPARATION OF POWERS ESTABLISHED IN THE CONSTITUTION. EXECUTIVE POWER AND OTHER NONSENSE. MANAGER SCHIFF WROTE THE WHITE HOUSE ASSERTION OF EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE WAS BACKED BY DECADES OF PRECEDENT THAT HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED AND HAS RECOGNIZED THE NEED FOR THE PRESIDENT AND HIS SENIOR ADVISORS TO RECEIVE CANDID ADVICE AND INFORMATION FROM THEIR TOP AIDES.EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE AND OTHER NONSENSE. THE NONSENSE — WE TALKED ABOUT THIS THE OTHER NIGHT — IS TO TREAT THE SEPARATION OF POWERS AND CONSTITUTIONAL PRIVILEGES AS IF THEY’RE ASBESTOS IN THE CEILING TILES. YOU CAN’T TOUCH THEM. THAT’S NOT THE WAY THE CONSTITUTION IS DESIGNED. WE’RE GOING TO NOW TURN OUR ATTENTION TO A SEPARATE TOPIC. IT’S ONE THAT WAS — BEEN DISCUSSED A LOT ON THE FLOOR HERE AND WILL BE DISCUSSED NOW.PRESENTING FOR THE PRESIDENT IS THE FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR THE STATE OF FLORIDA PAM BONDY. SHE IS ALSO A PROSECUTOR, A CAREER PROSECUTOR. SHE’S HANDLED COUNTLESS CASES. SHE’S GOING TO DISCUSS AN ISSUE THAT THE HOUSE MANAGERS HAVE PUT PRETTY MUCH AT THE CENTER OF THEIR CASE, AND THAT’S THE ISSUE OF CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE PARTICULARLY WITH REGARD TO A COMPANY KNOWN AS BURISMA. I YIELD MY TIME, MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, TO FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL PAM BONDY. >> MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, SENATORS, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, WHEN THE HOUSE MANAGERS GAVE YOU THEIR PRESENTATION, WHEN THEY SUBMITTED THEIR BRIEF, THEY REPEATEDLY REFERENCED HUNTER BIDEN AND BURISMA.THEY SPOKE TO YOU FOR OVER 21 HOURS AND THEY REFERENCED BIDEN OR BURISMA OVER 400 TIMES. MS. BONDI: AND WHETHER THEY GAVE THESE PRESENTATIONS, THEY SAID THERE WAS NOTHING, NOTHING TO SEE, IT WAS A SHAM. THIS IS FICTION. IN THEIR TRIAL MEMORANDUM, THE HOUSE MANAGERS DESCRIBE THIS AS BASELESS. NOW, WHY DID THEY SAY THAT? WHY DID THEY INVOKE BIDEN OR BURISMA OVER 400 TIMES? THE REASON THEY NEEDED TO DO THAT IS BECAUSE THEY’RE HERE SAYING THAT THE PRESIDENT MUST BE IMPEACHED AND REMOVED FROM OFFICE FOR RAISING A CONCERN, AND THAT’S WHY WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THIS TODAY.THEY SAY SHAM. THEY SAY BASELESS BECAUSE THEY SAY THIS BECAUSE IF IT’S OKAY FOR SOMEONE TO SAY HEY, YOU KNOW WHAT? MAYBE THERE’S SOMETHING HERE WORTH RAISING, THEN THEIR CASE CRUMBLES. BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO PROVE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT THAT THERE IS NO BASIS TO RAISE THIS CONCERN. BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT PUBLIC RECORDS SHOW. HERE ARE JUST A FEW OF THE PUBLIC SOURCES THAT FLAGGED QUESTIONS SURROUNDING THIS VERY SAME ISSUE. THE UNITED KINGDOM SERIOUS FRAUD OFFICE, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE GEORGE KENT, HUNTER BIDEN’S FORMER BUSINESS ASSOCIATE, AND ABC WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, “GOOD MORNING AMERICA,” ABC. “THE WASHINGTON POST,” “THE NEW YORK TIMES,” UKRANIAN LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND THE OBAMA STATE DEPARTMENT ITSELF. THEY ALL RAISED THIS ISSUE. WE WOULD PREFER NOT TO BE TALKING ABOUT THIS. WE WOULD PREFER NOT TO BE DISCUSSING THIS. BUT THE HOUSE MANAGERS HAVE PLACED THIS SQUARELY AT ISSUE SO WE MUST ADDRESS IT. LET’S LOOK AT THE FACTS. IN EARLY 2014, JOE BIDEN, OUR VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, LED THE UNITED STATES FOREIGN POLICY IN UKRAINE WITH THE GOAL OF ROOTING OUT CORRUPTION.ACCORDING TO AN ANNUAL STUDY PUBLISHED BY TRANSPARENCY INTERNATIONAL, DURING THIS TIME UKRAINE WAS ONE OF THE MOST CORRUPT COUNTRIES IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. IN UKRAINE THERE’S A NATURAL GAS COMPANY CALLED BURISMA. BURISMA HAS BEEN OWNED BY AN OLIGARCH NAMED MICOLA CHERVE I ASK. HERE’S WHAT HAPPENED AFTER VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS MADE U.S. POINT MAN FOR UKRAINE. HIS SON HUNTER BIDEN ENDS UP ON THE BOARD OF BURISMA WORKING FOR AND PAID BY THE OLIGARCH. IN FEBRUARY 2014, IN THE WAKE OF ANTICORRUPTION UPRISING BY THE PEOPLE OF JUNE, HE FLEES THE COUNTRY, FLEES UKRAINE, THE OLIGARCH IS WELL KNOWN. GEORGE KENT, THE VERY FIRST WITNESS THAT THE DEMOCRATS CALLED DURING THEIR PUBLIC HEARINGS TESTIFIED THE OLIGARCH STOOD OUT FOR HIS SELF-DEALINGS EVEN AMONG OTHER OLIGARCHS.HOUSE MANAGERS DIDN’T TELL YOU THAT AMBASSADOR VOLKER EXPLAINED BURISMA HAD A, QUOTE, VERY BAD REPUTATION AS A COMPANY FOR CORRUPTION AND MONEY LAUNDERING. END QUOTE. HOUSE MANAGERS DIDN’T TELL YOU THAT. BURISMA WAS SO CORRUPT, THAT GEORGE KENT SAID HE INTERVENED TO PREVENT U.S. AID FROM COSPONSORING AN EVENT WITH BURISMA. YOU KNOW WHAT THIS EVENT WAS? IT WAS A CHILD’S CONTEST AND THE PRIZE WAS A CAMERA. THEY WERE SO BAD, BURISMA, THAT OUR COUNTRY WOULDN’T EVEN COSPONSOR A CHILDREN’S EVENT WITH BURISMA. IN MARCH 2014 THE UNITED KINGDOM SERIOUS FRAUD OFFICE OPENS A MONEY LAUNDERING INVESTIGATION INTO THE OLIGARCH AND HIS COMPANY BURISMA. THE VERY NEXT MONTH APRIL 2014, ACCORDING TO A PUBLIC REPORT, HUNTER BIDEN QUIETLY JOINS THE BOARD OF BURISMA. REMEMBER, EARLY 2014 IS WHEN VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN BEGAN LEADING UKRAINE POLICY. HERE’S HOW HUNTER BIDEN CAME TO JOIN BURISMA’S BOARD IN APRIL 2014. HE WAS BROUGHT ON THE BOARD BY DEVON ARCHER, HIS BUSINESS PARTNER. DEVON ARCHER WAS COLLEGE ROOMMATES WITH THE STEPSON OF SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY. ALL THREE MEN, HUNTER BIDEN, DEVON ARCHER, AND CHRIS HEINZ HAD ALL STARTED AN INVESTMENT FIRM TOGETHER.PUBLIC RECORDS SHOW THAT APRIL 16, 2014, DEVON ARCHER MEETS WITH VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN AT THE WHITE HOUSE. JUST TWO DAYS LATER ON APRIL 18, 2014, IS WHEN HUNTER BIDEN QUIETLY JOINS BURISMA ACCORDING TO PUBLIC REPORTING. REMEMBER, THIS IS JUST ONE MONTH AFTER THE UNITED KINGDOM SERIOUS FRAUD OFFICE OPENED A MONEY LAUNDERING CASE INTO BURISMA. HUNTER BIDEN JOINS THEIR BOARD. AND NOT ONLY TEN DAYS AFTER HUNTER BIDEN JOINS THE BOARD, BRITISH AUTHORITIES SEIZE $23 MILLION IN BRITISH BANK ACCOUNTS CONNECTED TO THE OLIGARCH THAT — THEOWNER OF BURISMA. DID HUNTER BIDEN LEAVE THE BOARD THEN? NO. THEY STARTED AN INVESTIGATION INTO POTENTIAL MONEY LAUNDERING. DID HUNTER BIDEN LEAVE THE BOARD? NO. WHAT HAPPENED WAS THEN, ONLY THEN DID THE COMPANY CHOOSE TO ANNOUNCE THAT HUNTER BIDEN HAD JOINED THE BOARD AFTER THE ASSETS OF BURISMA AND HIS OLIGARCH OWNER WERE FROZEN AND A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION HAD BEGUN.HUNTER BIDEN’S DECISION TO JOIN BURISMA RAISED FLAGS ALMOST IMMEDIATELY. ONE ARTICLE FROM MAY 2014 STATED, THE APPOINTMENT OF JOE BIDEN’S SON TO THE BOARD OF UKRANIAN GAS FIRM BURISMA HAS RAISED EYEBROWS THE WORLD OVER. EVEN AN OUTLET WITH BIAS FOR DEMOCRATS POINTED OUT HUNTER BIDEN’S ACTIVITIES CREATED A CONFLICT OF INTEREST FOR JOE BIDEN. THE ARTICLE STATED, THE MOVE RAISES QUESTIONS ABOUT A POTENTIAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST FOR JOE BIDEN.EVEN CHRIS HEINZ, HUNTER BIDEN’S OWN BUSINESS PARTNER HAD GRAVE CONCERNS. HE THOUGHT THAT WORKING WITH BURISMA WAS UNACCEPTABLE. THIS IS CHRIS HEINZ. HE WAS WORRIED ABOUT THE CORRUPTION, THE GEO POLITICAL RISK, AND HOW BAD IT WOULD LOOK. SO HE WISELY DISTANSES HIMSELF FROM — DISTANCES HIMSELF FROM HUNTER BIDEN AND DEVON ARCHER. HE DIDN’T SIMPLY CALL HIS STEPFATHER SECRETARY OF STATE AND SAY, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS. HE DIDN’T TELL HIS FRIENDS, HEY, GUY, I’M NOT GETTING ON THE BOARD.I WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. HE WENT SO FAR AS TO SEND AN E-MAIL TO SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS ABOUT THIS ISSUE. THIS IS CHRIS HEINZ. HE WROTE, APPARENTLY DEVON AND HUNTER HAVE JOINED THE BOARD OF BURISMA AND A PRESS RELEASE WENT OUT TODAY. I CAN’T SPEAK TO WHY THEY DECIDED TO, BUT THERE IS NO INVESTMENT BY OUR FIRM IN THEIR COMPANY. WHAT DID HUNTER BIDEN DO? HE STAYED ON THE BOARD.WHAT DID CHRIS HEINZ DO? HE SUBSEQUENTLY STOPPED DOING BUSINESS WITH HIS COLLEGE ROOMMATE DEVON ARCHER AND HIS FRIEND HUNTER BIDEN. CHRIS HEINZ’ SPOKESPERSON SAID THE LACK OF JUDGMENT IN THIS MATTER WAS A MAJOR CATALYST FOR MR. HEINZ ENDING HIS BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP WITH MR. ARCHER AND MR. BIDEN. NOW, THE MEDIA ALSO NOTICED THE SAME DAY AN ABC NEWS REPORTER ASKED OBAMA WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY JAY CARNEY ABOUT IT. HERE’S WHAT HAPPENED? >> HUNTER BIDEN HAS NOT TAKEN ANY POSITION WITH THE LARGEST OIL AND GAS COMPANY, HOLDING COMPANY IN UKRAINE. IS THERE ANY CONCERN ABOUT AT LEAST THE APPEARANCE OF A CONFLICT THERE? >> I WOULD REFER YOU TO THE VICE PRESIDENT’S OFFICE. I SAW THOSE REPORTS. HUNTER BIDEN AND OTHER MEMBERS OF THE BIDEN FAMILY ARE OBVIOUSLY PRIVATE CITIZENS. WHERE THEY WORK IS NOT — IS NOT REFLECTED AN ENDORSEMENT BY THE ADMINISTRATION OR BY THE VICE PRESIDENT OR PRESIDENT. BUT I WOULD REFER YOU TO THE VICE PRESIDENT’S OFFICE. MS. BONDI: THE NEXT DAY “THE WASHINGTON POST” RAN A STORY ABOUT IT. IT SAID, THE APPOINTMENT OF THE VICE PRESIDENT’S SON TO A UKRANIAN OIL BOARD LOOKS NEP TISSIC AT BEST, NEFARIOUS AT WORST.AGAIN, THE APPOINTMENT OF THE VICE PRESIDENT’S SON TO A UKRANIAN OIL BOARD LOOKS NEPOTISTIC AT BEST, NEFARIOUS AT WORST. THE MEDIA DID NOT STOP ASKING QUESTIONS HERE. IT KEPT GOING. HERE’S ABC. >> YOU HAVE TO FIGHT THE CANCER OF CORRUPTION. >> BUT THEN SOMETHING STRANGE HAPPENED. JUST THREE WEEKS LATER, A UKRANIAN NATURAL GAS COMPANY BURISMA ACCUSED OF CORRUPTION APPOINTS HUNTER BIDEN SEEN HERE IN THE PROINFORMATION — PROMOTIONAL VIDEOS TO THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS PAYING HIS FIRM MORE THAN A MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. MS. BONDI: HERE’S MORE FROM ABC. >> UKRAINE WAS NOT THE ONLY COUNTRY WHERE HIS BUSINESS AND DIPLOMACY OF THE VICE PRESIDENT INTERSECTED. IT ALSO HAPPENED IN CHINA. THIS VIDEO SHOWS CHINESE DIPLOMATS GREETING VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN AS HE ARRIVED IN BEIJING IN DECEMBER OF 2013. RIGHT BY HIS SIDE HIS SON HUNTER. LESS THAN TWO WEEKS LATER HUNTER’S FIRM HAD NEW BUSINESS CREATING AN INVESTMENT FUND IN CHINA INVOLVING THE GOVERNMENT-CONTROLLED BANK OF CHINA WITH REPORTS THEY HOPED TO RAISE $1.5 BILLION. MS. BONDI: IN FACT EVERY WITNESS WHO WAS ASKED ABOUT HUNTER IMIEDEN’S — BIDEN’S INVOLVEMENT WITH BURISMA AGREED THERE WAS A POTENTIAL APPEARANCE OF A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.MULTIPLE HOUSE DEMOCRAT WITNESSES, INCLUDING THOSE FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE, THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL, AND OTHERS IEW FAMILIAR MOUSILY TESTIFIED THERE WAS A POTENTIAL APPEARANCE OF A CONFLICT OF INTEREST. HOW MUCH MONEY DID HUNTER BIDEN GET FOR BEING ON THE BOARD? WELL, YOU START LOOKING AT THIS BANK RECORD, ACCORDING TO REPORTS BETWEEN APRIL 2014 AND OCTOBER 2015, BURISMA PAID MORE THAN $3.1 MILLION TO DEVON ARCHER AND HUNTER BIDEN. THAT’S OVER THE COURSE OF A YEAR AND A HALF. HOW DO WE KNOW THIS? SOME OF DEVON ARCHER’S BANK RECORDS WERE DISCLOSED DURING AN UNRELATED FEDERAL CRIMINAL CASE HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH HUNTER BIDEN.THESE BANK RECORDS SHOW 17 MONTHS THAT BURISMA WIRED TWO PAYMENTS OF $83,333 NOT JUST FOR ONE MONTH, FOR TWO MONTHS, FOR THREE MONTHS BUT FOR 17 MONTHS. ACCORDING TO REUTERS, SOURCES REPORT THAT OF THE TWO PAYMENTS OF $83,333 EACH, ONE WAS FOR HUNTER BIDEN AND ONE DEVON ARCHER, NOW, HUNTER BIDEN WAS PAID SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THAN BOARD MEMBERS FOR MAJOR U.S. FORTUNE 100 COMPANIES, SUCH AS GOLDMAN SAKS, COMCAST, CITIGROUP. THE TYPICAL BOARD MEMBER OF THESE FORTUNE 100 COMPANIES, WE KNOW THEY’RE TITANS OF THE INDUSTRY, THEY’RE HIGHLY QUALIFIED AND AS SUCH THEY’RE WELL COMPENSATED. EVEN SO HUNTER BIDEN WAS PAID SIGNIFICANTLY MORE. THIS IS HOW WELL HE WAS COMPENSATED.SO HUNTER BIDEN IS PAID OVER $83,000 A MONTH. WHILE THE AVERAGE AMERICAN FAMILY OF FOUR DURING THAT TIME EACH YEAR MADE LESS THAN $54,000 AND THAT’S ACCORDING TO U.S. CENSUS BUREAU DURING THAT TIME. AND THIS IS WHAT HAS BEEN REPORTED ABOUT HIS WORK ON THE BOARD. “THE WASHINGTON POST” SAID, QUOTE, WHAT SPECIFIC DUTIES HUNTER BIDEN CARRIED OUT FOR BURISMA ARE NOT FULLY KNOWN. END QUOTE. THE NEW YORKER REPORTED, QUOTE, ONCE OR TWICE A YEAR HE ATTENDED BURISMA BOARD MEETINGS AND ENERGY FORUMS THAT TOOK PLACE IN EUROPE. END QUOTE. WHEN SPEAKING WITH ABC NEWS ABOUT HIS QUALIFICATIONS TO BE ON BURR REECE PA’S BOARD, HUNTER — BURISMA’S BOARD, HUNTER BIDEN DIDN’T POINT TO ANY USUAL QUALIFICATIONS OF A BOARD MEMBER.HE HAD NO EXPERIENCE IN NATURAL GAS, NO EXPERIENCE IN THE ENERGY SECTOR, NO EXPERIENCE WITH UKRANIAN REGULATORY AFFAIRS. AS FAR AS WE KNOW HE DOESN’T SPEAK UKRANIAN. SO NATURALLY THE MEDIA HAS ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS BOARD MEMBERSHIP. WHY WAS HUNTER BIDEN ON THIS BOARD? >> IF YOUR LAST NAME WASN’T BIDEN, DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN ASKED TO BE ON THE BOARD OF BURISMA? >> I DON’T KNOW. I DON’T KNOW. PROBABLY NOT. MS. BONDI: LET’S GO BACK AND TALK ABOUT HIS TIME ON THE BOARD. REMEMBER, HE JOINED BURISMA’S BOARD APRIL 2014 WHILE THE UNITED KINGDOM HAD AN OPEN MONEY LAUNDERING CASE AGAINST BURISMA AND ITS OWNER, THE OLIGARCH. ON AUGUST 20, 2014, FOUR MONTHS LATER, THE UKRANIAN PROSECUTOR GENERAL’S OFFICE INITIATED A MONEY LAUNDERING INVESTIGATION INTO THE SAME OLIGARCH.THIS IS ONE OF 15 INVESTIGATIONS INTO BURISMA AND. ACCORDING TO A RECENT PUBLIC STATEMENT MADE BY THE CURRENT PROSECUTOR GENERAL. ON JANUARY 16, 2015, PROSECUTOR, THE OWNER OF BURISMA, ON WHOSE HUNTER BIDEN SAT ON HIS BOARD ON THE COUNTRY’S WANTED LIST FOR FRAUD. WHILE HUNTER BIDEN IS ON THE BOARD. THEN A BRITISH COURT ORDERS HIS $23 MILLION IN ASSETS BE UNFROZEN. WHY WAS THE MONEY UNFROZEN? DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY KENT TESTIFIED TO IT. >> SOMEBODY IN THE GENERAL PROSECUTOR’S OFFICE OF UKRAINE SHUT THE CASE, ISSUED A LETTER TO HIS LAWYER, AND THAT MONEY WENT POOF. >> ESSENTIALLY PAID A BRIBE TO MAKE THE CASE GO AWAY? >> THAT IS OUR STRONG ASSUMPTION, YES, SIR. >> HE ALSO TESTIFIED THE UKRANIAN PROSECUTOR GENERAL’S OFFICE ACTIONS LED TO THE UNFREEZING OF THE ASSETS. MS. BONDI: AFTER GEORGE KENT’S CONFIRMATION, THAT PROSECUTOR WAS OUT. VICTOR SHOKIN BECOMES THE PROSECUTOR GENERAL. THIS IS THE PROSECUTOR THAT YOU’LL HEAR ABOUT LATER, THE ONE THAT VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS PUBLICLY SAID HE WANTED OUT OF OFFICE. IN ADDITION TO FLAGGING QUESTIONS ABOUT PREVIOUS PROSECUTORS’ ACTIONS, GEORGE KENT ALSO SPECIFICALLY VOICED OTHER CONCERNS.THIS TIME TO THE VICE PRESIDENT’S OFFICE ABOUT HUNTER BIDEN. IN FEBRUARY 2015, HE RAISED CONCERNS ABOUT HUNTER BIDEN TO VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN’S OFFICE. >> IN A BRIEFING CALL WITH THE NATIONAL SECURITY STAFF OF THE OFFICE OF THE VICE PRESIDENT IN FEBRUARY 2015, I RAISED MY CONCERN THAT HUNTER BIDEN’S STATUS AS A BOARD MEMBER WOULD CREATE THE PERCEPTION OF A CONFLICT OF INTEREST. MS. BONDI: BUT HOUSE MANAGERS DIDN’T TELL YOU THAT. THIS IS ALL WHILE HUNTER BIDEN SAT ON BURISMA’S BOARD. DID HUNTER BIDEN STOP WORKING FOR BURISMA? NO. DID HE STOP LEADING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION’S FOREIGN POLICY EFFORTS IN UKRAINE? NO. IN THE MEANTIME, VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN IS STILL AT THE FOREFRONT OF THE U.S.-UKRAINE POLICY. HE PLEDGED $1 BILLION LOAN GUARANTEE TO UKRAINE CONTINGENT ON ITS PROGRESS IN ROOTING OUT CORRUPTION. AROUND THE SAME TIME OF THE THE $1 BILLION ANNOUNCEMENT, OTHER PEOPLE RAISED THE ISSUE OF A CONFLICT.AS OBAMA ADMINISTRATION SPECIAL ENVOY FOR ENERGY POLICY TOLD “THE NEW YORKER,” IT RAISED HUNTER BIDEN’S PARTICIPATION ON THE BOARD OF BURISMA, HE RAISED IT DIRECTLY WITH THE VICE PRESIDENT HIMSELF. THIS IS A SPECIAL ENVOY TO PRESIDENT OBAMA. AND THE MEDIA HAD QUESTIONS, TOO. DECEMBER 8, 2015. “THE NEW YORK TIMES” PUBLISHES AN ARTICLE THAT PROSECUTOR GENERAL SHOKIN WAS INVESTIGATING BURISMA AND ITS OWNER. THE “TIME” REPORT, HERE’S THEIR QUOTE. THE CREDIBILITY OF THE VICE PRESIDENT’S ANTICORRUPTION MESSAGE MAY HAVE BEEN UNDERMINED BY THE ASSOCIATION OF HIS SON, HUNTER BIDEN, END QUOTE, WITH BURISMA AND ITS OWNER.AND IT WASN’T JUST ONE REPORTER WHO ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE LINE BETWEEN BURISMA AND THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION. AS WE LEARNED RECENTLY THROUGH REPORTING ON FOX NEWS, ON JANUARY 19, 2016, THERE WAS A MEETING BETWEEN OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS AND UKRAINIAN PROSECUTORS. KEN VOGLE, JOURNALIST FOR “THE NEW YORK TIMES,” ASKED THE STATE DEPARTMENT ABOUT THIS MEETING. HE WANTED MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE MEETING, QUOTE, WHERE U.S. SUPPORT FOR PROSECUTION OF BURISMA HOLDINGS IN THE UNITED KINGDOM AND THE UKRAINE WERE DISCUSSED, END QUOTE. BUT THE STORY NEVER RAN. AROUND THE TIME OF THE REPORTED STORY, JANUARY, 2016, A MEETING BETWEEN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AND UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS TOOK PLACE ACCORDING TO A UKRAINIAN PRESS REPORT AS TRANSLATED SAYS, QUOTE, THE U.S.DEPARTMENT OF STATE MADE IT CLEAR TO THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES THAT IT WAS LINKING THE $1 BILLION IN LOAN GUARANTEES TO THE DISMISSAL OF PROSECUTOR GENERAL VIKTOR SHOKIN, END QUOTE. NOW, WE ALL KNOW FROM THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AND FROM THE WORDS OF VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN HIMSELF, HE ADVOCATED FOR THE PROSECUTOR GENERAL DISMISSAL. THERE WAS ONGOING INVESTIGATION INTO THE OLIGARCH ZLOCHEVSKY, THE OWNER OF BURISMA, AT THE TIME. WE KNOW THIS BECAUSE ON FEBRUARN PROSECUTOR GENERAL OBTAINED A RENEWAL OF A COURT ORDER TO SEIZE THE UKRAINIAN OLIGARCH’S ASSETS. A “KIEV POST ARTICLE” SAYS THE OLIGARCH ZLOCHEVSKY IS SUSPECTED OF, QUOTE, COMMITTING A CRIMINAL OFFENSE OF ILLICIT ENRICHMENT, END QUOTE.OVER THE NEXT FEW WEEKS, THE VICE PRESIDENT HAD MULTIPLE CALLS WITH UKRAINE’S PRESIDENT POROSHENKO. DAYS AFTER THE LAST CALL ON FEBRUARY 24, 2016, A D.C. CONSULTANT REACHED OUT TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT TO REQUEST A MEETING TO DISCUSS BURISMA. WE KNOW WHAT SHE SAID BECAUSE THE E-MAIL WAS RELEASED UNDER THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT. THE CONSULTANT EXPLICITLY INVOKED HUNTER BIDEN’S NAME AS A BOARD MEMBER. IN AN E-MAIL SUMMARIZING THE CALL, THE STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL SAYS THAT THE CONSULTANT, QUOTE, NOTED THAT TWO HIGH-PROFILE CITIZENS ARE AFFILIATED WITH THE COMPANY, INCLUDING HUNTER BIDEN AS A BOARD MEMBER, END QUOTE.SHE ADDED THAT THE CONSULTANT WOULD, QUOTE, LIKE TO TALK WITH UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE NEVELLI ABOUT GETTING A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THE U.S. CAME TO THE DETERMINATION THAT THE COUNTRY IS CORRUPT, END QUOTE. TO BE CLEAR, THIS E-MAIL DOCUMENTS THAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAD DETERMINED BURISMA TO BE CORRUPT. AND THE CONSULTANT WAS SEEKING A MEETING WITH AN EXTREMELY SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL TO DISCUSS THE U.S.GOVERNMENT’S POSITION. HER PITCH FOR THE MEETING SPECIFICALLY USED HUNTER BIDEN’S NAME, AND ACCORDING TO THE E-MAIL, THE MEETING WAS SET FOR A FEW DAYS LATER. AND LATER THAT MONTH, ON MARCH 29, 2016, THE UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT FINALLY VOTES TO FIRE THE PROSECUTOR GENERAL. THIS IS THE PROSECUTOR GENERAL INVESTIGATING THE OLIGARCH, OWNER OF BURISMA, ON HIS BOARD HUNTER BIDEN SAT. TWO DAYS AFTER THE PROSECUTOR GENERAL IS VOTED OUT, VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN ANNOUNCE THAT THE U.S. WILL PROVIDE $335 MILLION IN SECURITY ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE. HE SOON ANNOUNCE THAT THE U.S. WILL PROVIDE $1 BILLION IN LOAN GUARANTEES TO UKRAINE. NOW, LET’S TALK ABOUT ONE OF THE DEMOCRATS’ CENTRAL WITNESSES, AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH. IN MAY, 2016, AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH WAS NOMINATED TO BE AMBASSADOR IN UKRAINE. HERE IS WHAT HAPPENED WHEN SHE WAS PREPARING FOR HER SENATE CONFIRMATION HEARING. >> CONGRESS WOMAN STEFAN NICK HAD ASKED YOU HOW THE OBAMA STATE DEPARTMENT HAD PREPARED YOU TO ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT BURISMA AND HURT BIDEN SPECIFICALLY.DO YOU RECALL THAT? >> YES. >> OUT OF THOUSANDS OF COMPANIES IN THE UKRAINE, THE ONLY ONE YOU RECALL THE OBAMA-BIDEN STATE DEPARTMENT PREPARING YOU TO ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT IS THE ONE WHERE THE VICE PRESIDENT’S SON WAS ON THE BOARD. IS THAT FAIR? >> YES. MS. BONDI: SO SHE’S BEING PREPARED TO COME BEFORE ALL OF YOU, ALL OF YOU, AND TALK ABOUT WORLD ISSUES, GOING TO BE IN CHARGE OF THE UKRAINE. AND WHAT DID THEY FEEL THE ONLY COMPANY — THE COMPANY THAT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO BRIEF HER ON IN CASE SHE GOT A QUESTION? BURISMA.AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH WAS CONFIRMED JULY 2016 AS THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WAS COMING TO A CLOSE CLOSE. SEPTEMBER 2016, A UKRAINIAN COURT CANCELS THE ARREST WARRANT OF ZLOCHEVSKY. BURISMA ANNOUNCES ALL LEGAL PROCEEDINGS AGAINST IT AND ZLOCHEVSKY HAVE BEEN CLOSED. BOTH OF THESE THINGS HAPPENED WHILE HUNTER BIDEN SET ON THE BOARD OF BURISMA. AROUND THIS TIME, VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN LEAVES OFFICE. YEARS LATER NOW FORMER VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN PUBLICLY DETAILS WHAT WE KNOW HAPPENED — HIS THREAT TO WITHHOLD MORE THAN $1 BILLION IN LOAN GUARANTEES UNLESS SHOKIN WAS FIRED. HEREBY’S THE VICE PRESIDENT. >> I’M NOT GOING TO — WE’RE NOT GOING TO GIVE YOU THE BILLION DOLLARS. THEY SAID, YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY. YOU’RE NOT THE PRESIDENT. THE PRESIDENT SAID — I SAID, CALL HIM. I SAID, I’M TELLING YOU, YOU’RE NOT GETTING A BILLION. I’M GOING TO BE LEAVING HERE. I THINK IT WAS ABOUT SIX HOURS. I’M LEAVING IN SIX HOURS. IF THE PROSECUTOR IS NOT FIRED, YOU’RE NOT GETTING THE MONEY. WELL, SON OF A ABOUT. ITCH. — WELL, SON OF A BITCH. THEY HE GOT FIRED.MS. BONDI: WHAT HE DIDN’T SAY ON THE VIDEO, ACCORDING TO “THE NEW YORK TIMES,” THIS WAS THE PROSECUTOR INVESTIGATING BURISMA, SHOKIN. WHAT HE ALSO DIDN’T SAY ON THE VIDEO WAS THAT HIS SON WAS BEING PAID SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS BY THE OLIGARCH, OWNER OF BURISMA, TO SIT ON THAT BOARD. ONLY THEN DOES HUNTER BIDEN LEAVE THE BOARD. HE STAYS ON THE BOARD UNTIL APRIL 2019. NOW, ON NOVEMBER — IN NOVEMBER 2019, HUNTER BIDEN SIGNS AN AFFIDAVIT SAYING, QUOTE, HE’S BEEN UNEMPLOYED AND HAS NO OTHER MONTHLY INCOME SINCE MAY 2019. THIS WAS IN NOVEMBER OF 2019, SO WE KNOW FROM AFTER APRIL 2019 TO MAY 2019 THROUGH NOVEMBER 2019, HE WAS UNEMPLOYED BY HIS OWN STATEMENT. APRIL 2019 TO NOVEMBER 2019. DESPITE HIS RESIGNATION FROM THE BOARD, THE MEDIA CONTINUED TO MADE THE ISSUE RELATING TO A POTENTIAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST. ON JULY 22, 2019, “THE WASHINGTON POST” WROTE THAT FIRED PROSECUTOR GENERAL SHOKIN, QUOTE, BELIEVES HIS OUT OFFER WAS — OUSTER WAS BECAUSE OF HIS INTEREST IN THE COMPANY, END QUOTE, REFERRING TO BURISMA.THE “POST” FURTHER WROTE THAT, QUOTE, HAD HE REMAINED IN HIS POST, HE WOULD HAVE QUESTIONED HUNTER BIDEN. ON JULY 25, 2019, THREE DAYS LATER, PRESIDENT TRUMP SPEAKS WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY. HE SAYS, THE OTHER THING, THERE’S A LOT OF TALK ABOUT BIDEN’S SON, THAT BIDEN STOPPED THE PROSECUTION AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT TO FIND OUT ABOUT THAT, SO WHATEVER YOU CAN DO WITH THIS ATTORNEY GENERAL WOULD BE GREAT. BIDEN WENT AROUND BRAGGING THAT HE STOPPED THE PROSECUTION. SO IF YOU CAN LOOK INTO IT, IT LOOKS HORRIBLE TO ME. END QUOTE. THE HOUSE MANAGERS TALKED ABOUT THE BIDEN AND BURISMA 400 TIMES BUT THEY NEVER GAVE YOU THE FULL PICTURE. BUT HERE ARE THOSE WHO DID. THE UNITED KINGDOM SERIOUS FRAUD UNIT, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE GEORGE KENT, CHRIS HEINZ, THE ABC WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, ABC, “GOOD MORNING AMERICA,” “THE WASHINGTON POST,” “THE NEW YORK TIMES,” UKRAINIAN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THE OBAMA STATE DEPARTMENT ITSELF.THEY ALL THOUGHT THERE WAS CAUSE TO RAISE THE ISSUE ABOUT THE BIDENS AND BURISMA. NOW THE HOUSE MANAGERS MIGHT SAY, WITHOUT EVIDENCE, THAT EVERYTHING WE JUST HAVE SAID HAS BEEN DEBUNKED, THAT THE EVIDENCE POINTS ENTIRELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY IN THE OTHER DIRECTION. THAT IS A DISTRACTION. YOU’VE HEARD FROM THE HOUSE MANAGERS THEY DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS ANY CONCERN TO RAISE HERE, THAT ALL OF THIS WAS BASELESS, AND ALL WE ARE SAYING IS THAT THERE WAS AS BASIS TO TALK ABOUT THIS, TO RAISE THIS ISSUE, AND THAT IS ENOUGH. I YIELD MY TIME. MR. SEKULOW: THANK YOU, MR. CHIEF JUSTICE. MAJORITY LEADER McCONNELL, DEMOCRATIC LEADER SCHUMER, HOUSE MANAGERS, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, THIS WILL BE OUR LAST PRESENTATION BEFORE DINNER. NEXT LAWYER REPRESENTING THE PRESIDENT IS ERIC A FORMER PROSECUTOR AND TRIAL LAWYER AND RAN A NATURAL GAS COMPANY IN THE UNITED STATES.HE IS GOING TO DISCUSS ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE THE HOUSE MANAGERS IGNORED OR MISSTATED AND HOW OTHER PRESIDENTS MIGHT HAVE MEASURED UP UNDER THIS NEW IMPEACHMENT STANDARD. MR. HERSCHMANN: MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, I AM ERIC HERBMAN. I HAVE THE HONOR AND PLEASURE OF REPRESENTING THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IN THESE PROCEEDINGS. I HAVE BEEN CAREFULLY LISTENING TO AND REVIEWING THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ CASE. THAT CASE PRETTY MUCH BOILS DOWN TO ONE STRAIGHTFORWARD CONTENTION — THAT THE PRESIDENT ABUSED HIS POWER TO PROMOTE HIS OWN PERSONAL INTERESTS AND NOT OUR COUNTRY’S INTERESTS.THE HOUSE MANAGERS SAY THAT THE PRESIDENT DID NOT TAKE THE STEPS THAT THEY ALLEGE FOR THE BENEFIT OF OUR COUNTRY BUT ONLY FOR HIS OWN PERSONAL BENEFIT. BUT IF THAT’S WRONG, WHAT THE PRESIDENT HAD WANTED WOULD HAVE BENEFITED OUR COUNTRY, THEN THE MANAGERS HAVE NOT MET THEIR BURDEN AND THESE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT MUST BE REJECTED. AS WE WILL SEE, THE HOUSE MANAGERS DO NOT COME CLOSE TO MEETING THEIR BURDEN. LAST WEEK MANAGER SCHIFF SAID THAT THE INVESTIGATIONS PRESIDENT TRUMP SUPPOSEDLY ASKED PRETZEL ZELL ZELENSKY — PRESIDENT ZELENSKY ABOUT ON THE JULY 25 CALL COULD NOT HAVE BEEN IN THE COUNTRY’S INTEREST, BECAUSE THEY WERE, QUOTE-UNQUOTE, DISCREDITED ENTITLEMENT THEY SAY THE INVESTIGATIONS HAD BEEN DEBUNKED, THEY WERE SHAM INVESTIGATIONS.SO NOW WE HAVE THE REQUEST, WERE THEY REALLY? THE HOUSE MANAGERS IN THE OVER 21 HOURS OF THEIR REPETITIVE PRESENTATION NEVER FOUND THE TIME TO SUPPORT THOSE CONCLUESRY STATEMENTS. WAS IT IN FACT TRUE THAT ANY INVESTIGATION HAD BEEN DEBUNKED? THE HOUSE MANAGERS DO NOT IDENTIFY FOR YOU WHO SUPPOSEDLY CONDUCTED ANY INVESTIGATIONS, WHO SUPPOSEDLY DID THE DEBUNKING, WHO DISCREDITED IT, WHERE AND WERE ANY SUCH INVESTIGATIONS CONDUCTED, WHEN WERE THE RESULTS PUBLISHED AND MUCH MORE IS LEFT UNANSWERED. ATTORNEY GENERAL WON DID — ATTY GENERAL BONDI WENT FLEW MUCH OF WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT BURISMA. THERE IS NO QUESTION THE ANY RATIONAL PERSON WOULD LIKE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED. I’M GOING TO GO THROUGH SOME ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE WHICH WAS EASILY AVAILABLE TO THE HOUSE MANAGERS BUT WHICH THEY NEVER SOUGHT OR CONSIDERED. BASED ON WHAT ATTORNEY GENERAL BONDI TOLD YOU IN THIS ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE YOU CAN JUDGE FOR YOURSELF WHETHER THE CONDUCT WAS SUSPECT. AS YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE ISSUES CONCERNED HUNTER BIDEN’S INVOLVEMENT WITH THE UKRAINIAN NATURAL GAS COMPANY WHICH PAID HIM MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WHILE HIS FATHER WAS VICE PRESIDENT AND WAS IN CHARGE OF THE UKRAINIAN PORTFOLIO DURING THE PRIOR ADMINISTRATION.I’LL GET TO THOSE SUPPOSEDLY DISCREDITED ALLEGATIONS IDENTIFIED BY THE HOUSE MANAGERS IN A FEW MINUTES. THE OTHER ISSUE WAS WHAT MANAGER SCHIFF CALLED THE BASELESS THEORY THAT UKRAINE, NOT RUSSIA, INTERFERED IN THE 2016 ELECTION, CLOSE QUOTE. MANAGER SCHIFF SAID THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTED TO, QUOTE, ERASE FROM HISTORY HIS PREVIOUS POLITICAL MISCONDUCT, CLOSE QUOTE. BUT THERE WAS NO PREVIOUS POLITICAL MISCONDUCT. IF ANY THEORY HAS ACTUALLY BEEN DISCREDITED, I.T. THE TEARY THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP COLLUDED WITH RUSSIA IN 2016. IT WAS THAT THEORY THAT WAS DISCREDITED AND DISCREDITED ENTIRELY BY MR. MUELLER’S MASSIVE INVESTIGATION, THE SAME INVESTIGATION THE DEMOCRATS DEMANDED SINCE PRESIDENT TRUMP TOOK OFFICE, THE SAME INVESTIGATION THEY KNEW THEY WERE ABSOLUTELY SURE WOULD EXPOSE SUCH COLLUSION. THE SAME INVESTIGATION WHICH AFTER 22 MONTHS OF EX-AUTOGRAPHIVE WORK — — EXHAUST I HAVE WORK AT A COST OF $32 MILLION, FOUND NO CONSPIRACY AND NO EVIDENCE OF RUSSIAN COLLUSION WITH THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN. AS WE WILL SEE, THE DEMOCRATS ARE AS WRONG NOW ABOUT THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT AS THEY WERE IN 2016 ABOUT THE RUSSIAN COLLUSION.AS TO THE OTHER INCIDENT PRESIDENT OBAMA MENTIONED, THE ONE CONCERNING THE UKRAINIAN GAS COMPANY, BURISMA, THIS IS SOMETHING UNDISSPEWS DISPUTED, THAT UKRAINE HAD A PARTICULARLY BAD CORRUPTION PROBLEM. IT WAS SO CORRUPT THAT DEALING WITH CORRUPTION AND SOLVING THE CORRUPTION WAS A PRIORITY FOR OUR U.S. FOREIGN POLICY. HERE IS HOW ONE KNOWLEDGEABLE OBSERVER OF UKRAINE PUT IT IN 2015. QUOTE, IT’S NOT ENOUGH TO SET UP A NEW ANTICORRUPTION BUREAU AND ESTABLISH A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR FIGHTING CORRUPTION. THE OFFICE OF THE GENERAL PROSECUTOR DESPERATELY NEEDED REFORM. THE JUDICIARY SHOULD BE OVERHAULED. THE ENERGY SECTOR NEEDS TO BE COMPETITIVE. RULED BY MARKET PRINCIPLES NOT SWEETHEART DEALS. IT IS NOT ENOUGH TO PUSH THROUGH LAWS TO INCREASE TRANSPARENCY WITH REGARD TO OFFICIAL SOURCES OF INCOME.SENIOR ELECTED OFFICIALS HAVE TO REMOVE ALL CONFLICTS BETWEEN THEIR BUSINESS INTERESTS AND THEIR GOVERNMENT RESPONSIBILITIES. NOW, AS ATTORNEY GENERAL BONDI SAID, HERE ARE THE FACTS WE DO KNOW ABOUT HUNTER BIDEN’S INVOLVEMENT WITH UKRAINE. BURISMA PAID HUNTER BIDEN MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO SERVE ON THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS. HE HAD NO EXPERTISE OR EXPERIENCE IN THE NATURAL GAS INDUSTRY. HE HAD NO KNOWN EXPERTISE IN CORPORATE GOVERNANCE NOR ANY EXPORT TEES IN UKRAINIAN LAW. HE DOESN’T, SO FAR AS WE KNOW, SPEAK UKRAINIAN. SO WHY? WHY DID BURISMA WANT HUNTER BIDEN ON ITS BOARD, WHY DID THEY WANT TO PAY HIM MILLIONS OF DOLLARS? WELL, HE DID HAVE ONE QUALIFICATION — HE WAS THE SON OF THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.HE WAS THE SON OF THE MAN IN CHARGE OF THE UKRAINIAN PORTFOLIO FOR THE PRIOR ADMINISTRATION. AND WE ARE TO BELIEVE THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE. THAT FOR ANYONE TO INVESTIGATE OR INQUIRY ABOUT THIS WOULD BE A SHAM, NOTHING TO SEE HER. BUT TELLINGLY, HUNTER BIDEN’S ATTORNEY ON OCTOBER 13, 2019, ISSUE ADD STATEMENT ON HIS BEHALF. HE INDICATED THAT IN APRIL 2014 HUNTER WAS ASKED TO JOIN THE BOARD AT BURISMA.THEN STATES HUNTER STEPPED OFF BURISMA’S BOARD IN APRIL 2019. NOW LISTEN TO THE COMMITMENT THAT HUNTER BIDEN IS SUPPOSEDLY WILLING TO MAKE TO ALL OF US. HUNTER MAKES THE FOLLOWING COMMITMENT — UNDER A BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, HUNTER WILL READILY COMPLY WITH ANY AND ALL GUIDELINES FOR STANDARDS A PRESIDENT BIDEN MAY ISSUE TO ADDRESS PURPORTED CONFLICTS OF INTEREST OR THE APPEARANCE OF SUCH CONFLICTS, INCLUDING ANY RESTRICTIONS RELATED TO OVERSEAS BUSINESS INTERESTS. THAT STATEMENT ALMOST TELLS US ALL WE NEED TO KNOW. THAT’S THE RULE THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN PLACE IN 2014 BECAUSE THERE ALREADY WAS AN OBAMA-BIDEN ADMINISTRATION. WHAT CHANGED? WHAT CHANGED? REMEMBER A COUPLE OF MINUTES AGO WHEN I QUOTED AN EXPERT ON UKRAINE, THE ONE WHO SAID THAT UKRAINE MUST CLEAN UP ITS ENERGY SECTOR, THE ONE WHO SAID THAT UKRAINE’S SENIOR ELECTED OFFICIALS HAVE TO REMOVE ALL CONFLICTS BETWEEN THEIR BUSINESS INTERESTS AND THEIR GOVERNMENT RESPONSIBILITIES? YOU KNOW WHO SAID THAT ABOUT UKRAINE? VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN IN DECEMBER OF 2015. VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN WENT TO UKRAINE APPROXIMATELY 12 TO 13 TIMES.HE SPOKE WITH LEGISLATORS, BUSINESS PEOPLE, OFFICIALS. HE WAS PURPORTEDLY FIGHTING CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE. HE WAS URGING UKRAINE TO INVESTIGATE AND UPROOT CORRUPTION. ONE THING HE APPARENTLY DID NOT DO, HOWEVER, WAS TO TELL HIS SON NOT TO TRADE ON HIS FAMILY CONNECTIONS. HE DID NOT TELL HIS SON TO ESPECIALLY STAY AWAY FROM THE ENERGY SECTOR AND THE VERY CORRUPTION-RIDDEN COUNTRY VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR. AND MANAGER SCHIFF SAYS MOVE ALONG, THERE’S NOTHING TO SEE HERE? WHAT ARE THE HOUSE MANAGERS AFRAID OF FINDING OUT? IN AN INTERVIEW WITH ABS IN OCTOBER OF — ABC IN OCTOBER OF LAST YEAR, HUNTER BIDEN SAID HE WAS ON THE BOARD TO FOCUS ON TRANSPARENCY. >> BOTTOM LINE, I KNOW I WAS COMPLETELY QUALIFIED TO HEAD UP THE CORPORATE GOVERNANCE AND TRANSPARENCY AS A GOVERNOR ON THE BOARD. AND THAT’S ALL THAT I FOCUSED ON.MR. HERSCHMANN: WHEN ASKED HOW MUCH MONEY BURISMA WAS PAYING HIM, HE RESPONDED HE DOES NOT WANT TO OPEN HIS KOMONO AND DISCLOSE HOW MUCH. AS WE NOW KNOW HE WAS BEING FAR MORE THAN WHAT WAS IN THE PUBLIC RECORD. >> YOU WERE PAID $50,000 A MONTH? >> I’M A PRIVATE CITIZENS. — CITIZEN. I DON’T HAVE TO OPEN MY KOMONO AS TO HOW MUCH MONEY I MADE OR DIDN’T MADE. IT WAS ALL REPORTED. MR. HERSCHMANN: HOW MUCH WAS THE VICE PRESIDENT’S SON PAID.WAS IT BASED ON HIS UNDERSTANDING OF THE NATURAL GAS INDUSTRY IN UKRAINE? WAS HE GOING TO DISCUSS HOW HE SET GAS RATES? WAS HE GOING TO DISCUSS PIPELINE DEVELOPMENT CONSTRUCTION OR ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STATEMENTS? DID HE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE NATURAL GAS INDUSTRY AT ALL? OF COURSE NOT. SO WHAT WAS THE REASON? I THINK WE DO NOT LOOK — DO NOT NEED TO LOOK ANY FURTHER, THAT THE EXPLANATION THAT HUNTER BIDEN GAVE DURING THE ABC INTERVIEW WHEN HE WAS ASKED WHY, HERE’S WHAT HE HAD TO SAY. >> IF YOUR LAST NAME WASN’T BIDEN, DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN ASKED TO BE ON THE BOARD OF BURISMA? >> I DON’T KNOW.I DON’T KNOW. PROBABLY NOT. I DON’T THINK THERE’S A LOT OF THINGS THAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IN MY LIFE IF MY LAST NAME WASN’T BIDEN. MR. HERSCHMANN: THEN HUNTER BIDEN AND HIS LAWYER COULD THE NO KEEP THEIR STORY STRAIGHT. COMPARE THE PRESS RELEASE ISSUED BY BURISMA ON MAY 12, 2014, WITH HUNTER BIDEN’S LAWYER STATEMENT ON OCTOBER 13, 2019. THE MAY 2014 PRESS RELEASE BEGINS, R., FOR HUNTER BIDEN, WILL BE IN CHARGE OF HOLDINGS’ LEGAL UNIT. HE WAS GOING TO BE IN CHARGE OF A GAS COMPANY OWNED BY AN OLIGARCH’S LEGAL UNIT. AFTER HIS INVOLVEMENT WITH BURISMA CAME UNDER RENEWED PUBLIC SCRUTINY, HE NOW CLAIMS AT NO TIME WAS HUNTER IN CHARGE OF THE COMPANY’S LEGAL AFFAIRS. WHICH IS IT? WHAT WAS HUNTER BIDEN DOING AT BURISMA IN EXCHANGE FOR HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS? WHO KNOWS. WHAT WERE THEY LOOKING TO HIDE? SO MUCH FOR HIS CORPORATE GOVERNANCE AND TRANSPARENCY. LET’S TAKE A STEP BACK AND REALIZE WHAT ACTUALLY TRANSPIRED BECAUSE THE HOUSE MANAGERS WOULD HAVE US BELIEVE THIS HAD NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH OUR GOVERNMENT, NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH OUR COUNTRY’S INTEREST, NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH OUR VICE PRESIDENT, NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THE STATE DEPARTMENT.IT WAS SIMPLY PRIVATE CITIZEN HUNTER BIDEN DOING HIS BUSINESS. IT WAS COINCIDENTAL THAT IN THE ENERGY SECTOR THAT HIS FATHER SAID WAS CORRUPT. BUT WE HAVE A DOCUMENT HERE AGAIN, SOMETHING THAT HOUSE MANAGER — HOUSE MANAGERS DID NOT SHOW YOU OR EVEN PUT BEFORE THE HOUSE BEFORE VOTING THESE BASELESS ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT. IF YOU LOOK AT THIS E-MAIL, IT’S AN E-MAIL FROM CHRIS HEINZ AND AS ATTORNEY BONDI TOLD YOU, HE IS THE STEPSON OF THE THEN-SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY, AND WHO WAS THE OTHER BUSINESS PARTNER WITH HUNTER BIDEN AND DEVON ARCHER, OUR SECRETARY OF STATE’S SON AND VICE PRESIDENT’S SON ARE IN BUSINESS TOGETHER. IT WAS SENT ON MAY 13, 2014, TO THE OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT E-MAIL ADDRESSES OF TWO SENIOR PEOPLE AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT.WHO ARE THESE TWO PEOPLE? THE CHIEF OF STAFF TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE AND THE SPECIAL ADVISOR TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE. THE SUBJECT LINE IN THE E-MAIL IS NOT CORPORATE TRANSPARENCY, IT’S NOT CORPORATE GOVERNANCE, IT’S NOT HERE’S A HEADS UP, THE SUBJECT LINE IS UKRAINE. CHRIS HEINZE UNDERSTOOD THE SENSE ACTIVITY TO OUR — SENSITIVITY TO OUR U.S. FOREIGN POLLS. AND WHAT DOES HE SAY ABOUT DEVON ARCHER AND HUNT BIDEN. APPARENTLY THEY BOTH JOINED THE BOARD OF BURISMA. A PRESS REPORT WENT OUT. I CAN’T SPEAK AS TO WHY THEY WANTED TO. WHAT IS THE MOST TELLING THING ABOUT THIS? IT IS CLEAR THAT THE CHIEF OF STAFF AND SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE SECRETARY ALREADY KNEW WHO DEVON WAS BECAUSE MR.HEINZE DID NOT INCLUDE HIS LAST NAME. IT’S JUST DEVON. AND THEY OBVIOUSLY KNEW WHO HUNTER WAS BECAUSE, AGAIN, IT’S HUNTER BIDEN. THIS IS CHRIS HIERNZ SAYING, — HEINZE SAYING, I CAN’T SPEAK AS TO WHY THEY JOINED THE BOARD OF BURISMA. NOT THAT THEY ARE GOING THERE FOR CORPORATE GOVERNMENT, NOT TO ENHANCE TRANSPARENCY, NOT TO ENHANCE U.S. POLICY, NOT THAT THEY ARE THERE TO ENSURE THAT BOARDS OF DIRECTORS COMPENSATION AND BENEFITS ARE PUBLICLY DISCLOSED. NOTHING LIKE THIS THAT. HE CANNOT SAY THOSE THINGS BECAUSE HE KNOWS DEVON AND HUNTER WELL, AND HE KNOWS THEY HAVE NO PARTICULAR QUALIFICATIONS WHATSOEVER TO DO THOSE THINGS, ESPECIALLY FOR UKRAINIAN GAS COMPANY. INSTEAD, MR. HEINZE IS PLAINLY GOING ON THE RECORD TO REPORT WHAT HUNT AND DEVON WERE DOING THROUGH OFFICIAL CHANNELS AND TO TAKE PAINS TO DISASSOCIATE HIMSELF FROM WHAT THEY WHEN DOING. AND WHAT DID THE STATE DEPARTMENT DO WITH THIS INFORMATION THAT THE SECRETARY OF STATE STEPSON THOUGHT THEY NEEDED TO KNOW? APPARENTLY NOTHING. THEY DID NOT TELL MR. HEINZE TO STAY AWAY, THEY DID NOT TELL MR.NOTHING. BUT ALL THIS THE HOUSE MANAGERS WANT US TO BELIEVE DOES NOT EVEN MERIT ANY INQUIRY. ANYONE ASKING FOR ONE, ANYONE DISCUSSING ONE IS NOW CORRUPT. DOES IT MATTER IN AN INQUIRY WHY A CORRUPT COMPANY IN A CORRUPT COUNTRY WOULD BE PAYING OUR VICE PRESIDENT’S SON A MILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR PLUS IT APPEARS SOME ADDITIONAL EXPENSES IN PAYING HIS BUSINESS PARTNER AN ADDITIONAL MILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR? SECRETARY OF STATE KERRY’S STEPSON THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO REPORT. WHY AREN’T THE HOUSE MANAGERS CONCERNED? AND I ASK YOU WHY WOULD IT NOT MERIT AN INVESTIGATION? AND YOU KNOW SOMETHING ELSE ABOUT VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN. WELL, BACK IN JANUARY OF 2018, AS YOU HEARD FORMER VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN BRAGGED THAT HE HAD PRESSURED THE UKRAINIANS, THREATENED THEM AND INDEED CONFERRED THEM INTO — CONNERSED THEM INTO FIRING THE STATE PROSECUTOR WHO WAS THE VERY COMPANY THAT PAID MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO HIS SON.HE BRAGGED HE GAVE THEM SIX HOURS TO FIRE THE PROSECUTOR OR HE WOULD CUT OFF $1 BILLION IN U.S. LOAN GUARANTEES. >> I SAID I’M — WE’RE NOT GOING TO GIVE YOU THE BILLION DOLLARS. THEY SAID, YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY. YOU’RE NOT THE PRESIDENT. THE PRESIDENT SAID. I SAID, CALL HIM. I SAID, I’M TELLING YOU, YOU’RE NOT GETTING A BILLION DOLLARS. I’M GOING TO BE LEAVING HERE, IN, WHAT, SIX HOURS, IF THE PROSECUTOR’S NOT FIRED, WELL, SON OF A B ITCH, HE WAS FIRED AND THEY PUT IN SOMEBODY WHO WAS SOLID AT THE TIME. MR. HERSCHMANN: ARE WE REALLY TO BELIEVE THAT IT IS THE POLICY OF OUR GOVERNMENT TO PAY THE BILLION DOLLARS UNLESS THEY FIRED A PROSECUTOR ON THE SPOT? WAS THAT REALLY OUR POLICY? WE HAVE ALL HEARD CONTINUOUSLY FROM THE MANAGERS AND MANY AGREE ABOUT THEIR RISKS TO THE UKRAINIANS POSED BY THE RUSSIANS.WE HAVE HEARD THE MANAGERS SAY THAT A SLIGHT DELAY IN PROVIDING FUNDING TO UKRAINE ENDANGERS OUR NATIONAL SECURITY AND JEOPARDIZES OUR INTEREST AND THEREFORE THE PRESIDENT MUST IMMEDIATELY BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE. YET, THEY ALSO ARGUE THAT IT WAS THE OFFICIAL POLICY OF OUR COUNTRY TO WITH HOLD A BILLION DOLLARS UNLESS ONE INDIVIDUAL WAS FIRED WITHIN A CERTAIN MATTER OF HOURS. WAS THAT REALLY OR COULD IT EVER BE OUR UNITED STATES POLICY? ACCORDING TO THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ THEORY, WE WERE WILLING TO JEOPARDIZE UKRAINIANS, UNLESS SOMEBODY WHO HAPPENED TO BE INVESTIGATING BURISMA WAS PROMPTLY FIRED.WERE WE GOING TO JEOPARDIZE THE UKRAINIAN ECONOMY BECAUSE A PROSECUTOR WAS NOT FIRED IN THE SIX-HOUR TIME PERIOD VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN DEMANDED? DOES ANYONE REALLY BELIEVE THAT WAS OR EVER COULD BE OUR UNITED STATES FOREIGN POLICY? AND JUST IN CASE THE MANAGERS OR OTHERS TRY TO ARGUE, NO, NO, NO, HE WASN’T SERIOUS ABOUT THAT, HE WAS JUST BLUFFING, WHAT KIND OF MESSAGE WOULD THAT SEND TO THE RUSSIANS ABOUT OUR SUPPORT FOR THE UKRAINIANS THAT WE WOULD BLUFF AND BLUFF WITH THE UKRAINIAN ECONOMY? FROM 2014 TO 2017, VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN CLAIMED TO BE ON A CRUSADE AGAINST CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE.HE REPEATEDLY SPOKE ABOUT HOW THE CANCER OF CORRUPTION WAS ENDEMIC IN UKRAINE AND HOBBLED UKRAINE, HOW UKRAINE FACED NO MORE CONSEQUENTIAL MISSION THAN CONFRONTING CORRUPTION, AND HE ENCOURAGED UKRAINE TO CLOSE THE SPACE FOR CORRUPT MIDDLE MEN WHO RIPPED OFF THE PEOPLE. HE RAILED AGAINST THIS BEHAVIOR FOR A SELECT FEW PROFIT FROM SO MANY SWEETHEART DEALS THAT HAS CHARACTERIZED THAT COUNTRY FOR SO LONG. AND ON HIS LAST OFFICIAL VISIT TO UKRAINE, FOUR DAYS BEFORE HE LEFT OFFICE, HE SPOKE OUT AGAINST CORRUPTION AND OLIGARCHY THAT EATS AWAY LIKE A CANCER AND AGAINST CORRUPTION WHICH CONTINUES TO EAT AWAY AT UKRAINE’S DEMOCRACY WITHIN.WHY WAS VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN DOING THIS? WAS HE SO CONCERNED ABOUT CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE EVEN SINGLING OUT THAT COUNTRY’S ENERGY SECTOR BECAUSE CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE IS A CRITICAL POLICY CONCERN FOR OUR COUNTRY. BUT DURING THIS WHOLE TIME, WHAT ELSE WAS HAPPENING? HIS SON AND HIS SON’S BUSINESS PARTNER WERE RAKING IN OVER $1 MILLION A YEAR FOR WHAT WAS REGARDED AS ONE OF THE MOST CORRUPT UKRAINIAN COMPANIES IN THE ENERGY SECTOR OWNED AND CONTROLLED BY ONE OF THE MOST CORRUPT OLIGARCHS.WERE VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN’S WORDS AND ADVICE TO UKRAINE HOLLOW? ACCORDING TO THE HOUSE MANAGERS, THE ANSWER IS APPARENTLY, YES, THEY WERE EMPTY WORDS AT LEAST WHEN IT CAME TO ANYONE QUESTIONING HIS SON’S OWN SWEETHEART DEAL, HIS OWN SON’S DEAL WITH UKRAINE’S CORRUPTION AND OLIGARCHY. AGAIN TO RAISE MANAGER SCHIFF’S OWN QUESTION, WHAT KIND OF MESSAGE DID THIS SEND TO U.S.GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, YOUR FAMILY CAN ACCEPT MONEY IN PHONE GOVERNMENTS? YOU CAN PAY FAMILY MEMBERS OF OUR HIGHEST GOVERNMENT INITIALS AND — OFFICIALS AND NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO ASK QUESTIONS? WHAT WAS GOING ON? WE HAVE TO JUST ACCEPT NOW THE HOUSE MANAGERS CONCLUSION SPP ARY STATEMENTS. AND CAN YOU IMAGINE WHAT HOUSE MANAGER SCHIFF AND HIS FELLOW DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVES WOULD SAY IF IT WERE PRESIDENT TRUMP’S CHILDREN ON AN OLIGARCH’S PAYROLL? AND WHEN IT FINALLY APPEARED THAT A TRUE UKRAINIAN CORRUPTION FIGHTER ASSUMED THE PRESIDENCY, PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO, WAS NOT PERMITTED TO FOLLOW UP ON VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN’S OWN WORDS ABOUT FIGHTING CORRUPTION AND TRY TO MAKE THOSE WORDS SOMETHING OTHER THAN EMPTY. AND ACCORDING TO THE HOUSE MANAGERS, UKRAINIAN CORRUPTION IS NOW ONLY A PRIVATE INTEREST. IT NO LONGER IS A SERIOUS IMPORTANT CONCERN FOR OUR COUNTRY. NOW, I WANT TO TAKE A MOMENT TO COVER A FEW ADDITIONAL POINTS ABOUT THE JULY 25 TELEPHONE CALL IN WHICH THE HOUSE MANAGERS BELIEVE THAT THE PRESIDENT AND THE UNITED STATES IN THEIR WORDS WAS SHAKING DOWN AND PRESSURING THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE TO DO HIS PERSONAL BIDDING. FIRST OF ALL, THIS WAS NOT THE FIRST TELEPHONE CALL THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAD WITH OTHER FOREIGN LEADERS.THINK ABOUT THIS FOR A MOMENT. THE CALL IS ROUTED THROUGH THE SITUATION ROOM. IT WAS A SCHEDULED CALL. THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE ON THE CALL. THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE TAKING NOTES, AND OBVIOUSLY THE PRESIDENT WAS AWARE OF THAT FACT. THE HOUSE MANAGERS TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE PRESIDENT DID NOT FOLLOW THE APPROVED TALKING POINTS, AS IF THE PRESIDENT, ANY PRESIDENT, IS OBLIGATED TO FOLLOW APPROVED TALKING POINTS. AND THE LAST TIME I CHECKED — AND I THINK THIS IS CLEAR TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE — PRESIDENT TRUMP KNOWS HOW TO SPEAK HIS MIND. BUT REMEMBER THE FAKE TRANSCRIPT THAT MANAGER SCHIFF READ WHEN HE WAS BEFORE THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE? HIS MOB GANGSTER-LIKE FAKE RENDITION OF THE CALL? I PROSECUTED ORGANIZED CRIME FOR YEARS. THE TYPE OF DESCRIPTION OF WHAT GOES ON, WHAT HOUSE MANAGER SCHIFF TRIED TO CREATE FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IS COMPLETELY DETACHED FROM REALITY.IT IS AS IF WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE THAT MOBSTERS WOULD INVITE PEOPLE THEY DO NOT KNOW INTO AN ORGANIZED CRIME MEETING TO SIT AROUND AND TAKE NOTES TO ESTABLISH THE CORRUPT INTENT. MANAGER SCHIFF, OUR JOB AS PROSECUTORS — AND I KNOW YOU WERE ONE — WOULD HAVE BEEN A LOT EASIER IF THAT WERE HOW IT WORKED. THINK ABOUT WHAT HE IS SAYING. THINK ABOUT THE MANAGERS’ POSITION, THAT OUR PRESIDENT DECIDED WITH CORRUPT INTENT TO SHAKE DOWN, IN THEIR WORDS, ANOTHER FOREIGN LEADER. AND HE DECIDED TO DO IT IN FRONT OF EVERYONE IN A DOCUMENTED CONVERSATION IN THE PRESENCE OF PEOPLE HE DID NOT EVEN KNOW JUST SO HE COULD GET THIS PERSONAL BENEFIT AND IT WAS NOT — THAT WAS NOT IN OUR COUNTRY’S INTEREST.THE LOGIC IS FLAWED. IT IS COMPLETELY ILLOGICAL BECAUSE THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED. AND THAT IS WHY MANAGER SCHIFF RAN AWAY FROM THE ACTUAL TRANSCRIPT. THAT IS WHY HE CREATED HIS OWN FAKE CONVERSATION. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO JUST ADDRESS ANOTHER POINT FOR THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE JULY 25 PHONE CALL. THE HOUSE MANAGERS ALLEGED THAT AN OVAL OFFICE MEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT WAS CRITICAL TO THE NEWLY ELECTED UKRANIAN PRESIDENT BECAUSE IT WOULD SIGNAL TO RUSSIA, WHICH HAD INVADED UKRAINE IN 2014 AND STILL OCCUPIED UKRANIAN TERRITORY, THAT UKRAINE COULD — I’M SORRYD COUNT ON AMERICAN SUPPORT. THEY ACTUALLY ARGUE THAT IT WAS A QUID PRO QUO, THAT THE PRESIDENT WITHHELD THIS CRITICAL OVAL OFFICE MEETING THAT WOULD DETER THE RUSSIANS AND SAVE THE UKRANIANS BECAUSE HE WANTED SOMETHING PERSONAL. NOW IF THAT WAS IN FACT CRITICAL TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKY FOR THE SAFETY OF HIS OWN CITIZENS, HE WOULD HAVE IMMEDIATELY JUMPED AT THE OPPORTUNITY TO COME TO THE OVAL OFFICE, ESPECIALLY WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP OFFERED HIM THAT INVITATION DURING THE JULY 25 CALL. BUT LET’S SEE WHAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKY ACTUALLY SAYS WHEN HE’S INVITED TO WASHINGTON ON THAT CALL. HE DOES NOT SAY, OH, THIS IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO.IT’S CRITICAL FOR MY PEOPLE. WE WILL ARRANGE IT IMMEDIATELY. HIS RESPONSE IS, I WOULD BE VERY HAPPY TO COME AND WOULD BE HAPPY TO MEET YOU PERSONALLY AND GET TO KNOW YOU BETTER. ON THE OTHER HAND, I BELIEVE THAT ON SEPTEMBER 1, WE WILL BE IN POLAND AND WE CAN MEET IN POLAND, HOPEFULLY. IN AN OVAL OFFICE MEETING — IF AN OVAL OFFICE MEETING WAS CRITICAL TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKY, THAT WAS THE TIME TO SAY SO, NOT TO SUGGEST ANOTHER VENUE.WHEN WE LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE THAT IS BEFORE US, IT IS CLEAR THAT THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO TALKED ABOUT HAVING AN OVAL OFFICE MEETING WERE LOWER-LEVEL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES WHO THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA. BUT THE PRINCIPALS INVOLVED, THOSE WHO ACTUALLY MAKE THE DECISIONS, PRESIDENT ZELENSKY AND PRESIDENT TRUMP, TO THEM IT WAS NOT CRITICAL. IT WAS NOT MATERIAL. AND IT WAS DEFINITELY NEVER A QUID PRO QUO. WHAT WAS IMPORTANT TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKY WAS NOT AN OVAL OFFICE MEETING BUT THE LETHAL WEAPONS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SUPPLIED TO UKRAINE AND THE SANCTIONS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP ENFORCED AGAINST THE RUSSIANS. THAT IS WHAT THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE JULY 25 CALL DEMONSTRATES. LET US NOW CONSIDER WHAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKY KNEW ABOUT THE SUPPORT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD PROVIDED TO UKRAINE COMPARED TO THE SUPPORT, OR MORE ACCURATELY, LACK THEREOF, THAT THE PRIOR ADMINISTRATION HAD PROVIDED TO UKRAINE.IN FEBRUARY 2004, RUSSIA BEGAN ITS MILITARY CAMPAIGN AGAINST UKRAINE. AGAINST THE ADVICE AND URGINGS OF CONGRESS AND MANY IN HIS OWN ADMINISTRATION, PRESIDENT OBAMA REFUSED THEN AND THROUGHOUT THE REMAINDER OF HIS PRESIDENCY TO PROVIDE LETHAL ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE. IN THE HOUSE, MANAGER SCHIFF JOINED MANY OF HIS COLLEAGUES IN A LETTER WRITING CAMPAIGN TO PRESIDENT OBAMA URGING THAT, QUOTE, THE U.S. MUST SUPPLY UKRAINE WITH THE MEANS TO DEFEND ITSELF, CLOSE QUOTE, AGAINST RUSSIAN AGGRESSION AND URGING PRESIDENT OBAMA TO QUICKLY APPROVE ADDITIONAL EFFORTS TO SUPPORT UKRAINE’S EFFORTS TO DEFEND ITS SOVEREIGN TERRITORY, INCLUDING THE TRANSFER OF LETHAL DEFENSE WEAPONS TO THE UKRAINE MILITARY. ON MARCH 23 THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OVERWHELMINGLY PASSED A RESOLUTION URGING PRESIDENT OBAMA TO IMMEDIATELY EXERCISE THE AUTHORITY BY CONGRESS TO PROVIDE UKRAINE WITH LETHAL DEFENSIVE WEAPONS SYSTEM.THE VERY NEXT DAY THIS SENATE PASSED A UNANIMOUS RESOLUTION URGING THE PRESIDENT TO PRIORITIZE AND EXPEDITE THE PROVISION OF DEFENSIVE LETHAL AND NONLETHAL MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE CONSISTENT WITH THE UNITED STATES NATIONAL INTEREST AND POLICIES. AS ONE SENATOR HERE STATED IN MARCH OF 2015, PROVIDING NONLETHAL EQUIPMENT LIKE NIGHT VISION GOGGLES IS ALL WELL AND GOOD. BUT GIVING THE UKRANIANS THE ABILITY TO SEE THE RUSSIANS COMING BUT NOT THE ABILITY TO STOP THEM IS NOT THE ANSWER. YET, PRESIDENT OBAMA REFUSED. HE REFUSED EVEN THE FACE OF SUPPORT BY SENIOR CAREER PROFESSIONALS RECOMMENDING HE PROVIDE LETHAL WEAPONS TO THE UKRANIANS.BY CONTRAST, WHAT DID PRESIDENT ZELENSKY AND THE RUSSIANS KNOW? THEY KNEW THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DID, DID PROVIDE THAT SUPPORT. THAT CLEARLY WAS THE MOST MATERIAL THING TO HIM. MUCH MORE, MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN A MEETING IN THE OVAL OFFICE. THE HOUSE MANAGERS ALSO MAKE MUCH OF THEIR CONTENTION THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SUPPOSEDLY WANTED PRESIDENT ZELENSKY ONLY TO ANNOUNCE AN INVESTIGATION, NOT CONDUCT ANYTHING. BUT THAT CONTENTION MAKES NO SENSE.PRESIDENT TRUMP’S CALL WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY WAS IN JULY OF 2019, ALMOST A YEAR AND A HALF BEFORE OUR NEXT ELECTION. WOULD ONLY A BARE ANNOUNCEMENT SO FAR IN ADVANCE WITH NO FOLLOW-UP REALLY HAVE ANY EFFECT ON THE ELECTION AS THE MANAGERS CLAIM? WOULD ANYONE HAVE REMEMBERED THE ANNOUNCEMENT A YEAR OR MORE LATER? IRONICALLY, IT IS THE HOUSE MANAGERS WHO HAVE PUT BURISMA AND ITS CONNECTION TO THE BIDENS FRONT AND CENTER IN THIS PROCEEDING. AND NOW THE VOTERS WILL KNOW ABOUT IT AND PROBABLY WILL REMEMBER IT. BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR. MANAGER SCHIFF, WELL, THERE HE GOES AGAIN, HE’S PUTTING WORDS IN THE PRESIDENT’S MOUTH THAT WERE NEVER THERE.LOOK AT THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE JULY CALL. PRESIDENT TRUMP NEVER ASKED ABOUT ANY ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT ANY TYPE OF INVESTIGATION. AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKY TELLS PRESIDENT TRUMP, QUOTE, I GUARANTEE AS THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE THAT ALL THE INVESTIGATIONS WILL BE DONE OPENLY AND CANDIDLY. THAT I CAN ASSURE YOU. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? THE HOUSE MANAGERS SAY PRESIDENT ZELENSKY DID NOT WANT TO GET MIXED UP IN U.S. POLITICS, BUT IT IS PRECISELY THE DEMOCRATS WHO POLITICIZED THE ISSUE. LAST AUGUST THEY BEGAN CIRCLING THE WAGONS TRYING TO PROTECT VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN, AND THEY’RE STILL DOING IT IN THESE PROCEEDINGS. THEY CONTEND THAT ANY INVESTIGATION INTO THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF PAYMENTS BY A CORRUPT UKRAINE COMPANY OWNED BY A CORRUPT UKRAINE OLIGARCH TO THE SON OF THE SECOND-HIGHEST OFFICEHOLDER IN OUR LAND WHO WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN CHARGE OF FIGHTING CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE, THEY’RE CALLING THAT TYPE OF INQUIRY A SHAM.DEBUNKED. BUT THERE’S NEVER BEEN AN INVESTIGATION, SO HOW COULD IT BE A SHAM? SIMPLY BECAUSE THE HOUSE MANAGERS SAY SO? WHICH BRINGS ME TO YET ANOTHER ONE OF THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ BASELESS CONTENTIONS, THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP RAISED THE MATTER WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY BECAUSE VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD JUST ANNOUNCED HIS CANDIDACY FOR PRESIDENT. BUT OF COURSE IT WAS FAR FROM A SECRET THAT VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS PLANNING TO RUN. WHAT HAD IN FACT CHANGED? FIRST, PRESIDENT ZELENSKY HAD BEEN ELECTED IN APRIL ON AN ANTICORRUPTION PLATFORM. IN JULY, RUNNING ON THE SAME PLATFORM, HIS PARTY TOOK CONTROL OF THE UKRANIAN PARLIAMENT. THAT MADE IT THE OPPORTUNE TIME TO RAISE THE ISSUE, BECAUSE FINALLY THERE WAS A RECEPTIVE GOVERNMENT IN UKRAINE COMMITTED TO FIGHTING PRECISELY THE KIND OF HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE CONDUCT DISPLAYED BY BURISMA IN ITS PAYMENTS TO HUNTER BIDEN AND HIS PARTNER JUST AS JOE BIDEN RAISED YEARS BEFORE.TWO OTHER THINGS. IN LATE JUNE, ABC NEWS RAN A STORY ENTITLED “HUNTER BIDEN’S FOREIGN DEALS: DID JOE BIDEN’S SON PROFIT FROM HIS FATHER’S POSITION AS VICE PRESIDENT” JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS BEFORE PRESIDENT TRUMP’S TELEPHONE CALL WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY, THE “NEW YORKER” MAGAZINE, NOT EXACTLY A SUPPORTER OF PRESIDENT TRUMP RAN AN EXPOSE, WILL HUNTER BIDEN JEOPARDIZE HIS FATHER’S CAMPAIGN, GOING THROUGH SOME OF THE FACTS THAT WE KNOW ABOUT HUNTER BIDEN’S INVOLVEMENT WITH BURISMA AND HIS INVOLVEMENT WITH A CHINESE COMPANY. THE “NEW YORK” REPORTER — AGAIN, THIS WAS IN JULY, JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS BEFORE THE PHONE CALL — SAID THAT SOME OF VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN’S ADVISORS WERE WORRIED THAT HUNTER WOULD EXPOSE THE VICE PRESIDENT TO CRITICISM. A FORMER SENIOR WHITE HOUSE AIDE TOLD “THE NEW YORKER” REPORTER THAT HUNTER’S BEHAVIOR INVITED QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER HE WAS, QUOTE, LEVERAGING ACCESS FOR HIS BENEFIT, CLOSE QUOTE. THE REPORTER WROTE THAT WHEN I ASKED MEMBERS OF BIDEN’S STAFF WHETHER THEY DID RAISE THEIR CONCERN WITH THE VICE PRESIDENT, SEVERAL OF THEM SAID THEY HAD BEEN TOO INTIMIDATED TO DO SO.EVERYONE WHO WORKS FOR HIM HAS BEEN SCREAMED AT, A FORMER ADVISOR TOLD THE REPORTER. I DON’T KNOW WHETHER ANYONE HAS BEEN INTIMIDATED BY VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN OR HAS BEEN SCREAMED AT BY HIM ABOUT BURISMA OR HIS SON’S INVOLVEMENT. DO WE WANT THE TYPE OF GOVERNMENT WHERE QUESTIONS ABOUT SUSPECT CONDUCT ARE SUPPRESSED OR DISMISSED AS ILLEGITIMATE BECAUSE SOMEONE IS INTIMIDATED OR SCREAMS AT OR IS JUST TOO IMPORTANT? NO, THAT IS PRECISELY WHEN AN INVESTIGATION IS MOST IMPORTANT. NOW LAST THURSDAY NIGHT MANAGER JEFFRIES PROVIDED US WITH THE DEMOCRATS’ STANDARD FOR ABUSE OF POWER. HE SAID, QUOTE, ABUSE OF POWER OCCURS WHEN THE PRESIDENT EXERCISES HIS OFFICIAL POWER TO OBTAIN A CORRUPT PERSONAL BENEFIT WHILE IGNORING OR INJURING THE NATIONAL INTEREST. MR. JEFFRIES AND THE HOUSE MANAGERS CONTEND THAT UNDER THIS STANDARD, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS COMMITTED AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE AND MUST BE IMMEDIATELY REMOVED FROM OFFICE.BUT IF MANAGER JEFFRIES’ STANDARD APPLIES, THEN WHERE WILL THESE SAME DEMOCRATS’ CALLS FOR IMPEACHMENT WHEN UNCONTROVERTED SMOKING GUN EVIDENCE EMERGED WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA HAD VIOLATED THEIR STANDARD? THE AMERICAN PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS BASIC NOTION AS EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER THE LAW. IS AS AMERICAN AS APPLE PIE. YET THE HOUSE MANAGERS WANT TO APPLY THEIR OWN VERSION OF SELECTIVE JUSTICE HERE WHICH APPLIES ONLY TO THEIR POLITICAL OPPONENTS. THEY WANT ONE SYSTEM OF JUSTICE FOR DEMOCRATS AND ANOTHER SYSTEM OF JUSTICE FOR EVERYONE ELSE. BUT YOU DO NOT NEED TO TAKE MY WORD FOR IT. LET’S WALK THROUGH THE FACTS. ON MARCH 26, 2012, ON THE EVE OF THE 2012 NUCLEAR SECURITY SUMMIT IN SEOUL, SOUTH KOREA, PRESIDENT OBAMA MET WITH RUSSIAN PRESIDENT MEDVEDEV TO DISCUSS NATIONAL SECURITY INTERESTS, MILITARY DEFENSE. HOW IMPORTANT WAS THE ISSUE OF MISSILE DEFENSE TO THE STRATEGIC RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE U.S. AND RUSSIA. AS PRESIDENT OBAMA’S DEFENSE SECRETARY ROBERT GATES SAID IN JUNE 2010, UPGRADED MISSILE INTERCEPTOR AND DEVELOPMENT, QUOTE, WOULD GIVE US THE ABILITY TO PROTECT OUR TROOPS, OUR BASES, OUR FACILITIES, AND OUR ALLIES IN EUROPE.GATES CONTINUED, THERE IS NOTHING OF THE MINDS ON MISSILE DEFENSE. THERE IS NO MEETING OF THE MINDS ON MISSILE DEFENSE. THE RUSSIANS HATE IT. THEY’VE HATED IT SINCE THE LATE 1960’S. THEY WILL ALWAYS HATE IT MOSTLY BECAUSE WE’LL BUILD IT AND THEY WON’T. DURING THE NUCLEAR SECURITY SUMMIT, PRESIDENT OBAMA HAD A PRIVATE EXCHANGE WITH RUSSIAN PRESIDENT MEDVEDEV THAT WAS PICKED UP ON A HOT MICROPHONE. >> I UNDERSTAND. I STAND WITH YOU. MR. HERSCHMANN: PRESIDENT OBAMA SAID ON ALL THESE ISSUES, BUT PARTICULARLY MISSILE DEFENSE, THIS, THIS CAN BE SOLVED, BUT IT’S IMPORTANT FOR HIM TO GIVE ME SPACE. PRESIDENT MEDVEDEV RESPONDED YEAH, I UNDERSTAND. I UNDERSTAND YOUR MESSAGE ABOUT SPACE. SPACE FOR YOU. PRESIDENT OBAMA, THIS IS MY LAST ELECTION. AFTER MY ELECTION, I WILL HAVE MORE FLEXIBILITY. PRESIDENT MEDVEDEV RESPONDS. I UNDERSTAND. I WILL TRANSMIT THIS INFORMATION TO VLADIMIR.AS WE ALL KNOW, IT’S VLADIMIR PUTIN. AS YOU JUST SAW IN 2012, PRESIDENT OBAMA ASKED THE RUSSIANS FOR SPACE UNTIL AFTER THE UPCOMING 2012 ELECTION AFTER WHICH HE WOULD HAVE MORE FLEXIBILITY. NOW, LET ME APPLY MR. JEFFRIES AND THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ THREE-PART TEST FOR ABUSE OF POWER. ONE, THE PRESIDENT EXERCISES HIS OFFICIAL POWER. PRESIDENT OBAMA’S ACTIONS CLEARLY MEET THE TEST FOR EXERCISING OFFICIAL POWER BECAUSE IN HIS ROLE AS HEAD OF STATE, DURING A NUCLEAR SECURITY SUMMIT, AFTER ASKING PRESIDENT MEDVEDEV FOR SPACE, HE PROMISED HIM THAT, QUOTE, MISS ILDEFENSE CAN — MISSILE DEFENSE CAN BE SOLVED. WHAT ELSE CAN THAT MEAN BUT SOLVED IN A WAY FAVORABLE TO THE RUSSIANS WHO WERE DEAD SET AGAINST THE EXPANSION OF A U.S.MISSILE DEFENSE SYSTEM IN EUROPE. TWO, TO OBTAIN A CORRUPT PERSONAL BENEFIT. PRESIDENT OBAMA’S ACTIONS WERE CLEARLY FOR HIS OWN CORRUPT PERSONAL BENEFIT BECAUSE HE WAS ASKING AN ADVERSARY FOR SPACE FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF FURTHERING HIS OWN ELECTION CHANCES. AGAIN, PRESIDENT OBAMA SAID, THIS IS MY LAST ELECTION. AFTER MY ELECTION, I HAVE MORE FLEXIBILITY. PRESIDENT OBAMA KNEW THE IMPORTANCE OF MISSILE DEFENSE IN EUROPE BUT DECIDED TO USE THAT AS A BARGAINING CHIP WITH THE RUSSIAN — WITH THE RUSSIANS TO FURTHER HIS OWN ELECTION CHANCES IN 2012. THREE, WHILE IGNORING OR INJURING OUR NATIONAL INTERESTS, HAS PRESIDENT OBAMA’S DEFENSE — AS PRESIDENT OBAMA’S DEFENSE SECRETARY SAID, MISSILES WOULD GIVE US THE ABILITY TO PROTECT OUR TROOPS, OUR BASES, OUR FACILITIES, AND OUR ALLIES IN EUROPE. SURELY, SACRIFICING THE ABILITY TO PROTECT OUR TROOPS AND OUR ALLIES WOULD INJURE THE NATIONAL INTEREST. YET PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS WILLING TO BARTER AWAY THE SAFETY OF OUR TROOPS AND THE SAFETY OF OUR ALLIES IN EXCHANGE FOR SPACE IN THE UPCOMING ELECTION.IN SHORT, PRESIDENT OBAMA LEVERAGED THE POWER OF HIS OFFICE TO THE DETRIMENT OF U.S. POLICY ON MISSILE DEFENSE IN ORDER TO INFLUENCE THE 2012 ELECTION SOLELY TO HIS ADVANTAGE. AND WE NEVER WOULD HAVE KNOWN PRESIDENT OBAMA REALIZED THAT THE MICROPHONE WAS ON, THAT THERE WAS A HOT MIKE. ONE COULD EASILY SUBSTITUTE PRESIDENT OBAMA’S 2012 EXCHANGE WITH PRESIDENT MEDVEDEV INTO ARTICLE ONE OF THE HOUSE’S IMPEACHMENT ARTICLES AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP. USING THE POWERS OF HIS HIGH OFFICE, PRESIDENT OBAMA SOLICITED INTERFERENCE OF A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT, RUSSIA, IN THE 2012 UNITED STATES PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.HE DID THROUGH — HE DID SO THROUGH A SCHEME OR COURSE OF CONDUCT THAT INCLUDED SOLICITING THE GOVERNMENT OF RUSSIA TO GIVE HIM SPACE, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, ON MISSILE DEFENSE THAT WOULD BENEFIT HIS REELECTION AND INFLUENCE THE 2012 UNITED STATES PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION TO HIS ADVANTAGE. IN DOING SO, PRESIDENT OBAMA USED THE POWERS OF THE PRESIDENCY IN A MANNER THAT COMPROMISED THE NATIONAL SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES AND UNDERMINED THE INTEGRITY OF THE UNITED STATES DEMOCRATIC PROCESS. HE THUS IGNORED AND INJURED THE INTEREST OF THE NATION. CLOSE QUOTE. DOES IT SOUND FAMILIAR, HOUSE MANAGERS? IT SHOULD. AS THE CASE AGAINST PRESIDENT OBAMA WOULD HAVE BEEN FAR STRONGER THAN THE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP, PRESIDENT OBAMA’S ABUSE OF POWER TO BENEFIT HIS OWN POLITICAL INTERESTS WAS THERE AND IS HERE NOW FOR EVERYONE TO HEAR. IT WAS A DIRECT, UNQUESTIONABLE QUID PRO QUO. NO MIND READING WAS NEEDED THERE. WHERE WERE THE HOUSE MANAGERS THEN? AND THAT POINTS OUT THE ABSURDITY OF THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ CASE AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP.IT WAS PRESIDENT OBAMA, NOT PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHO WAS WEAK ON RUSSIA AND WEAK ON SUPPORT TO UKRAINE. PRESIDENT OBAMA CAVED TO RUSSIA AND PUTIN ON MISSILE DEFENSE WHEN HE DECIDED TO SCRAP THE U.S. PLANS TO INSTALL MISSILE BASES IN POLAND, YET HE CRITICIZED SENATOR ROMNEY DURING THE 2012 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN WHEN SENATOR ROMNEY SAID RUSSIA WAS THE GREATEST GEO POLITICAL THREAT TO THE U.S. >> I’M GLAD YOU RECOGNIZE ALKI TODAY IS A THREAT. A FEW MONTHS AGO WHEN YOU WERE ASKED WHAT THE BIGGEST THREAT FACING AMERICA WAS, YOU SAID RUSSIA. NOT ALKI TODAY. YOU SAID RUSSIA, IN THE 1980’S OR NOW, CALLING TO ASK THEIR FOREIGN POLICY BACK. THE COLD WAR HAS BEEN OVER FOR 20 YEARS. MR. HERSCHMANN: NOW, WHEN IT’S POLITICALLY CONVENIENT, THE DEMOCRATS ARE SAYING THE SAME THING THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA CRITICIZED SENATOR ROMNEY FOR SAYING.IN FACT, THEY’RE BASING THEIR ENTIRE POLITICIZED IMPEACHMENT ON THIS INVERSION OF REALITY, THIS CLAIM THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT SUPPORTING UKRAINE FAR MORE THAN THE PRIOR ADMINISTRATION. PRESIDENT OBAMA CAVED ON MISSILE DEFENSE IN LATE 2009. HIS HOT MIC MOMENT OCCURRED IN MARCH 2012. HIS REELECTION WAS EIGHT MONTHS LATER. TWO YEARS LATER IN MARCH 2014, RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE IN EX-CRIMEA. PRESIDENT TRUMP REFUSED TO PROVIDE LETHAL AID TO UKRAINE TO ENABLE IT — I’M SORRY, PRESIDENT OBAMA REFUSED TO PROVIDE LETHAL AID TO UKRAINE TO ENABLE IT TO DEFEND ITSELF. WHERE WERE THE HOUSE MANAGERS THEN? THE HOUSE MANAGERS WOULD HAVE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A THREAT, AN IMMINENT THREAT TO THE NATIONAL SECURITY OF OUR COUNTRY FOR WHICH THE PRESIDENT MUST BE REMOVED IMMEDIATELY FROM THE HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE LAND. BECAUSE OF WHAT? BECAUSE HE HAD A PHONE CALL WITH A FOREIGN LEADER AND DISCUSSED CORRUPTION, BECAUSE HE PAUSED FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME GIVING AWAY OUR TAX DOLLARS TO A FOREIGN COUNTRY? THAT IS THEIR THEORY. IT IS ABSURD ON ITS FACE. NOT ONE AMERICAN LIFE WAS IN JEOPARDY OR LOST BY THE SHORT DELAY AND THEY KNOW IT.AND HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THEY KNOW IT? BECAUSE THEY WENT ON VACATION AFTER THEY ADOPTED THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT. THEY DID NOT CANCEL THEIR RECESS. THEY DID NOT RUSH BACK TO DELIVER THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT TO THE SENATE BECAUSE OF THE SUPPOSED TERRIBLE IMMINENT THREAT TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY. WHAT DID THEY DO? >> THE URGENCY. >> TIMING IS DRIVEN BY THE URGENCY. >> URGENCY. >> NOTHING COULD BE MORE URGENT. >> THE URGENCY. >> URGENT. AN URGENT. >> THERE’S AN URGENCY TO THIS. >> WE MUST MOVE SMOOTHLY. >> WE DON’T HAVE TIME TO SCREW AROUND. >> IT’S ABOUT URGENCY. >> HOUSE SPEAKER PELOSI STILL HOLDING ON TO THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT. MR. HERSCHMANN: URGENCY? URGENCY? FOR WHICH YOU WANT TO IMMEDIATELY REMOVE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES? YOU SAT ON THE ARTICLES FOR A MONTH.THE LONGEST DELAY IN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY. THEY ADOPTED THEM ON FRIDAY, DECEMBER 13, 2019. FRIDAY THE 13th. WENT ON VACATION AND FINALLY DECIDED AFTER ONE OF THEIR DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES HAD FINISHED AND AFTER THE B.C.S. FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP GAME THAT IT WAS TIME TO DELIVER THEM. WHAT HAPPENED TO THEIR NATIONAL SECURITY INTERESTS ARGUMENT? WASN’T THAT THE REASON THAT THEY SAID THEY HAD TO RUSH TO VOTE? IT’S URGENT THEY TOLD US. NO DUE PROCESS FOR THIS PRESIDENT. IT IS A CRISIS OF MONUMENTAL PROPORTION, OUR NATIONAL SECURITY IS AT RISK EVERY ADDITIONAL DAY HE IS IN OFFICE, THEY TELL US. THE HOUSE MANAGERS ALSO USED THE SAME EXCUSE FOR NOT ISSUING SUBPOENAS FOR TESTIMONY. THEY HAD NO TIME FOR THE NORMAL JUDICIAL REVIEW. THEY EVEN COMPLAINED ABOUT THE JUDICIAL REVIEW PROCESS SITTING IN THIS CHAMBER BEFORE THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT. A JUDICIARY REVIEW IN WHICH THE JUDGE AGREED TO AN EXPEDITED SCHEDULE. EVEN THAT WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR THEM WHEN THEY ISSUED THE SUBPOENAS. ONE OF THE LAWYERS FOR THE SUBPOENAED WITNESSES WROTE TO THE HOUSE GENERAL COUNSEL, QUOTE, WE ARE DISMAYED THAT THE HOUSE COMMITTEES HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO JOIN US IN SEEKING RESOLUTION FROM THE JUDICIAL BRANCH OF THIS MOMENTOUS CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTION AS EXPEDITIOUSLY AS POSSIBLE.HE CONTINUED. IT IS IMPORTANT TO GET A DEFINITIVE JUDGMENT FROM THE JUDICIAL BRANCH DETERMINING THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY IN THE PLACE OF CONFLICTING DEMANDS OF THE LEGISLATIVE AND EXECUTIVE BRANCHES. ISN’T THAT THE POINT? ISN’T THAT HOW OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT WORKS? ISN’T THAT HOW IT’S ALWAYS WORKED? ISN’T THAT HOW IT’S SUPPOSED TO WORK? THESE SAME DEMOCRATS DEFENDED OTHER ADMINISTRATIONS WHO FOUGHT JUDICIAL REVIEW OF CONGRESSIONAL SUBPOENAS. AND I THINK WE ALL REMEMBER FAST AND FURIOUS. THE SAME ATTORNEY WHEN HE WROTE TO THE HOUSE CHAIR SAID THE HOUSE CHAIRMAN MR. SCHIFF AND MR. NADLER ARE MISTAKEN TO SAY THE LAWSUIT IS INTENDED TO DELAY OR OTHERWISE OBSTRUCT THE COMMITTEES. VITAL INVESTIGATORY WORK. HE CONTINUED, NOR HAS THIS LAWSUITEN COORDINATED IN ANY WAY WITH THE WHITE HOUSE ANY MORE THAN IT HAS BEEN COORDINATED WITH THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. IF THE HOUSE CHOOSES NOT TO PURSUE THROUGH SUBPOENA TESTIMONY, LET THE RECORD BE CLEAR THAT IS THE HOUSE’S DECISION. YET THEY COME BEFORE YOU AND THEY BLAME THE ADMINISTRATION AND THEY BLAME YOU IF YOU DON’T SUBPOENA WITNESSES AND HAVE THEM BEFORE YOU.YET EVEN IN THE FACE OF THIS OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE, THEY CLAIM THAT THE PRESIDENT IS TO BLAME FOR THEIR DECISION TO WITHDRAW THEIR OWN SUBPOENAS OR NOT ISSUE OTHERS. THEIR CHOICE BUT THE PRESIDENT IS RESPONSIBLE. THAT IS ONE OF THEIR CLAIMS. IT IS LUDICROUS. THEY’RE BLAMING THE PRESIDENT BECAUSE THEY DECIDED ON THEIR OWN NOT TO SEEK JUDICIAL REVIEW AND ENFORCEMENT OF THEIR OWN SUBPOENAS. AND FOR SOME WITNESSES NEVER EVEN ISSUED SUBPOENAS. IN THEIR MINDS THAT IS IMPEACHABLE. MANAGER NADLER SPOKE ELOQUENTLY BACK BEFORE THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE HEARING IN DECEMBER OF 1998. HE SAID, QUOTE, THERE MUST NEVER BE A NARROWLY VOTED IMPEACHMENT OR AN IMPEACHMENT SUBSTANTIALLY SUPPORTED BY ONE OF OUR MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES AND LARGELY OPPOSED BY THE OTHER. SUCH AN IMPEACHMENT WOULD LACK LEGITIMACY, WOULD PRODUCE DIVISIVENESS AND BITTERNESS IN OUR POLITICS FOR YEARS TO COME. AND WILL CALL INTO QUESTION THE VERY LEGITIMACY OF OUR POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS. MANAGER NADLER WAS RIGHT THEN AND IT IS EQUALLY TRUE TODAY. DIVISIVENESS AND BITTERNESS, DIVISIVENESS AND BITTERNESS. LISTEN TO HIS WORDS. IMPEACHMENTS BY ONE PARTY CAUSED DIVISIVENESS AND BITTERNESS IN OUR COUNTRY.THAT IS WHAT A PARTISAN IMPEACHMENT LEADS TO. SADLY, WHILE MANAGER NADLER WARNED AGAINST DIVISIVENESS AND BITTERNESS, THE HOUSE DID NOT FOLLOW HIS ADMONITION. THEY DID NOT HEED HIS ADVICE. THAT’S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE’RE SITTING HERE TODAY WITH ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT THAT ARE NOT FOUNDED IN OUR CONSTITUTION OR THE EVIDENCE AND ARE BROUGHT SIMPLY FOR PARTISAN POLITICS. THIS IS A SAD TIME FOR ALL OF US. THIS IS NOT A TIME TO GIVE OUT SOUVENIRS. THE PENS USED TO SIGN THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT TRYING TO IMPROPERLY IMPEACH OUR COUNTRY’S REPRESENTATIVE TO THE WORLD.THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO TRY TO GET DIGS IN THAT THE PRESIDENT WILL ALWAYS BE IMPEACHED BECAUSE WE HAD THE MAJORITY AND WE COULD DO IT TO YOU AND WE DID IT TO YOU. IT IS WRONG. IT IS NOT WHAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DESERVE OR WANT. SADLY, THE HOUSE MANAGERS DO NOT TRUST THEIR FELLOW AMERICANS TO CHOOSE THEIR OWN PRESIDENT. THEY DO NOT THINK THAT THEY CAN LEGITIMATELY WIN AN ELECTION AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP SO THEY NEED TO RUSH TO IMPEACH HIM IMMEDIATELY. THAT IS WHAT THEY HAVE CONTINUALLY TOLD THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THAT IS A SHAME. WE ON THE OTHER HAND TRUST OUR FELLOW AMERICANS TO CHOOSE THEIR PRESIDENT. CHOOSE YOUR CANDIDATE. LET SENATORS THAT ARE HERE WHO ARE TRYING TO BECOME THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE TRY TO WIN THAT ELECTION AND LET THE AMERICAN PEOPLE CHOOSE.MAYBE, MAYBE THEY’RE CONCERNED THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE LIKE HISTORICALLY LOW UNEMPLOYMENT. MAYBE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE LIKE THAT THEIR 401(K) ACCOUNTS HAVE DONE EXTREMELY WELL. MAYBE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE LIKE PRISON REFORM AND GIVING PEOPLE A SECOND CHANCE. TELLINGLY, SOME OF THESE HOUSE MANAGERS WORK CONSTRUCTIVELY, CONSTRUCTIVELY WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION TO GIVE AMERICANS A SECOND CHANCE. THAT WAS THE PUBLIC INTEREST. THAT IS WHAT THE COUNTRY DEMANDS. THAT’S WHAT SOCIETY DESERVES. MAYBE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE LIKE AN ADMINISTRATION THAT IS FIGHTING THE OPIOID EPIDEMIC. MAYBE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE LIKE SECURE BORDERS. MAYBE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE LIKE BETTER TRADE AGREEMENTS WITH OUR BIGGEST TRADING PARTNERS.MAYBE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE LIKE OTHER COUNTRIES SHARING IN THE BURDEN WHEN IT COMES TO FOREIGN AID. MAYBE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ACTUALLY LIKE LOWER TAXES. IN OTHER WORDS, MAYBE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE LIKE THEIR CURRENT PRESIDENT. A PRESIDENT WHO KEPT HIS PROMISES AND DELIVERED ON THEM. IF YOU THINK THE — IF YOU THINK AMERICANS WANT TO ABANDON OUR PROSPERITY AND OUR UNPRECEDENTED SUCCESSES UNDER THIS PRESIDENT, THEN CONVINCE THE ELECTORATE IN NOVEMBER AT THE BALLOT BOX. DO NOT TRY TO IMPROPERLY INTERFERE WITH AN ELECTION THAT IS ONLY MONTHS AWAY BASED ON THESE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT. IN YOUR TRIAL MEMORANDUM THAT YOU SUBMITTED HERE BEFORE THE SENATE, YOU SPEAK ABOUT THE FRAMERS OF THE CONSTITUTION BELIEVING THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP’S ALLEGED CONDUCT IS THEIR, QUOTE-UNQUOTE, WORST NIGHTMARE AND THAT THEY WOULD BE HORRIFIED.IN FACT, SADLY, SADLY, IT IS THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ CONDUCT IN BRINGING THESE BASELESS ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT THAT WOULD CLEARLY BE THEIR AND OUR WORST NIGHTMARE. THANK YOU. THE PRESIDING OFFICER: THE MAJORITY LEADER IS RECOGNIZED. MR. McCONNELL: MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, I THINK WE ARE LOOKING AT A 45-MINUTE BREAK FOR DINNER. THE PRESIDING OFFICER: WITHOUT OBJECTION, SO ORDERED. RECESS: DERBY TEST. DERSHOWITZ TEST DERSHOWITZ TEST. RECESS: THE PRESIDING OFFICER: THE SENATE WILL COME TO ORDER. MR. SEKULOW: MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, HOUSE MANAGERS, WE’RE GOING TO DO TWO THINGS THIS EVENING. WE’RE GOING TO FIRST HEAR FROM FORMER INDEPENDENT COUNSEL ROBERT RAY. HE’S GOING TO DISCUSS ISSUES OF HOW HE WAS INVOLVED IN THE INVESTIGATIONS, THE LEGAL ISSUES, SOME OF THE HISTORY OF HOW THAT WORKS, AND THEN WE WILL CONCLUDE THIS EVENING WITH A PRESENTATION FROM PROFESSOR DERSHOWITZ.SO WITH THAT, I WOULD LIKE TO YIELD MY TIME, MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, TO ROBERT RAY. MR. RAY: MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, DISTINGUISHED HOUSE MANAGERS, AND MAY IT PLEASE THIS COURT OF IMPEACHMENT, I STAND BEFORE YOU TODAY IN DEFENSE OF MY FELLOW AMERICANS WHO IN NOVEMBER, 2016, ELECTED DONALD TRUMP TRUMP TO SERVE THE PEOPLE AS THEIR PRESIDENT. THEIR REASONS FOR THAT VOTE WERE AS VARIED AS ANY IMPORTANT DECISIONS ARE, BUT THEIR COLLECTIVE JUDGMENT, ACCEPTED AS LEGITIMATE UNDER OUR CONSTITUTION, IS DESERVING OF MY RESPECT AND YOURS. FOR ONLY THE THIRD TIME IN OUR NATION’S HISTORY, THE SENATE IS CONVENED TO TRY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ON ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT.THOSE ARTICLES DO NOT ALLEGE CRIMES. THE CONSTITUTION, THE FRAMERS’ INTENT, AND HISTORICAL PRACTICE ALL DICTATE THAT WELL-FOUNDED ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT ALLEGE BOTH THAT A HIGH CRIME HAS BEEN COMMITTED AND THAT, AS SUCH, REMOVAL FROM OFFICE IS WARRANTED ONLY WHEN SUCH AN OFFENSE ALSO CONSTITUTES AN ABUSE OF THE PUBLIC TRUST. THAT IS, IN THE CASE OF THE PRESIDENT, A VIOLATION OF HIS OATH OF OFFICE. BOTH ARE REQUIRED, AND NEITHER ONE BY CLEAR AND UNMISTAKABLE EVIDENCE IS SHOWN HERE BY THESE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT. I AM HERE THIS EVENING IN THIS CHAMBER DISTINCTLY PRIVILEGED TO REPRESENT AND DEFEND THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ON THE FACTS, ON THE LAW, AND ON THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLES THAT MUST BE PARAMOUNT TO YOU, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, IN DECIDING THE GREAT QUESTION OF WHETHER THESE ARTICLES WARRANT, WITH OR WITHOUT WITNESSES, THE REMOVAL OF THE PRESIDENT FROM OFFICE. BECAUSE THERE IS AND CAN BE NO BASIS IN THESE ARTICLES ON WHICH THE SENATE CAN OR SHOULD CONVICT THE PRESIDENT ON WHAT IS ALLEGED, THE PRESIDENT MUST NOT BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE. THAT JUDGMENT IS RESERVED TO THE PEOPLE IN THE ORDINARY COURSE OF ELECTIONS, THE NEXT OF WHICH IS JUST OVER NINE MONTHS AWAY.40 YEARS AGO, IN 1980, I FIRST CAME TO CAPITOL HILL AS A LEGISLATIVE INTERN FOR A CONGRESSMAN WHO ONLY SIX YEARS EARLIER HAD PLAYED AN IMPORTANT AND CRITICAL ROLE IN THE IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDINGS AGAINST PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON. THE CONGRESSMAN OF WHOM I SPEAK WHO I CAME TO RESPECT IMMENSELY SERVED THEN AND IN 1974 ON THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE. HE WAS TASKED IN THE SUMMER OF 1974 TOGETHER WITH HIS COLLEAGUES IN EVALUATING AND VOTING ON, AS MOST OF THE HOUSE MANAGERS HERE HAVE, ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT.THOSE ARTICLES INCLUDED THE CRIME OF OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, ABUSE OF POWER, AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS. BUT UNLIKE HOW HOUSE MANAGERS AND INDEED THE ENTIRE HOUSE 45 YEARS LATER IN DECEMBER, 2019, PROCEEDED HERE, BIPARTISAN CONSENSUS IN 1974 AMONG BOTH HOUSE DEMOCRATS AND HOUSE REPUBLICANS WAS THE ORDER OF THE DAY. INDEED, IT BECAME APPARENT THEN THAT NARROW, PARTISAN VIEWS ASIDE, THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE WOULD THE STEP INTO THE BREACH ONLY INSOFAR AS EVIDENCE OF PRESIDENTIAL CONDUCT WARPED IT. THE TAPES OF OVAL OFFICE CONVERSATIONS INVOLVING THE PRESIDENT PROVIDED THAT EVIDENCE. THE SUPREME COURT, IN FACT, OVERRULED THE EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE AND ORDERED TAPES TO THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE. AS A RESULT, THREE DAYS LATER, THE HIGH CRIME OF OBJECTION OF JUSTICE, TETHERED TO A SECOND ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT TWO DAYS AFTER THAT ALLEGING ABUSE OF POWER, WAS APPROVED BY THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE BY A VOTE OF 27-11 AND 28-10, RESPECTIVELY. THE SECOND ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT ALLEGED, AMONG OTHER THINGS, UNLAWFUL USE OF THE C.I.A. AND ITS RESOURCES, INCLUDING COVERT ACTIVITY IN THE UNITED STATES AND INTERFERENCE WITH THE LAW ENFORCEMENT ACTIONS OF THE F.B.I.TO ADVANCE THE COVER-UP; THAT IS THE CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY TO OBSTRUCT JUSTICE CHARGED IN THE FIRST ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT. THE CRIMES ALLEGED WERE SERIOUS YOU INVOLVING UNLAWFUL ELECTRON IC SURVEILLANCE OF AN OPPOSING POLITICAL PARTY, PAYING HUSH MONEY TO BURGLARS AND OTHER COCONSPIRATORS TO SILENCE COOPERATION WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND ATTEMPTS TO ALTER TESTIMONY UNDER OATH. SIX REPUBLICAN HOUSE COMMITTEE MEMBERS JOINED ALL 21 DEMOCRATS IN SUPPORTING THOSE TWO ARTICLES. MY CONGRESSMAN WAS AMONG THOSE SIX REPUBLICAN HOUSE MEMBERS. ANOTHER ONE OF THE SIX WAS THEN A YOUNG CONGRESSMAN FROM MAINE WHO LATER BECAME A MEMBER OF THIS BODY, SERVING WITH DISTINCTION AS A SENATOR AND LATER AS PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON’S SECRETARY OF DEFENSE. THAT YOUNG CONGRESSMAN WAS BILL COHEN. A THIRD OF THE SIX WAS REPRESENTATIVE CALDWELL BUTLERS A REPUBLICAN FROM VIRGINIA, WHOSE PAPERS ARE HOUSED AT WASHINGTON AND LEE UNIVERSITY IN LEXINGTON, VIRGINIA, IN THE STATE WHERE I GREW UP AND WHERE I LATER WENT TO LAW SCHOOL.TOGETHER THESE SIX REPUBLICANS MADE HISTORY. THEY DID SO WITH NO SENSE OF TRIUMPH. IN TODAY’S PARLANCE, NO FIST BUMPS, BUT ONLY IN THE WORDS OF MY CONGRESSMAN, WITH DEEP RELUCTANCE AND ONLY BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE WAS CLEAR AND UNMISTAKABLE OF UNLAWFUL ACTIVITIES OF THE PRESIDENT IN A CRIMINAL COVER-UP THAT WAS, IN THE CONCLUDING LANGUAGE OF THE FIRST ARTICLE, CONTRARY TO HIS TRUST AS PRESIDENT. AS TO THE THIRD ARTICLE IN THE NIXON IMPEACHMENT, THAT ARTICLE CHARGING OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS DID NOT ENJOY BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.BUT INSTEAD WAS VOTED ON BY THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE ALONG PARTY LINES BY A VOTE OF 21-17. REPUBLICANS OBJECTED THEN TO THE THIRD ARTICLE IN THE FACE OF THE PRESIDENT’S GOOD-FAITH PRIOR CLAIM TO EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE BY WITHHOLDING CERTAIN EVIDENCE UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THE MATTER WAS DEFINITIVELY RESOLVED BY THE SUPREME COURT. MY POINT IN MENTIONING THESE THREE VOTES BY THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE IS SIMPLY THIS — COUNT VOTES AND DO THE MATH. I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ALL HAVE BEEN DEPRIVED OF YOUR PHONES AND, THUS, A CALCULATOR APP, SO I WILL DO IT FOR YOU. H-A 27-11 VOTE WAS NOT ONLY BIPARTISAN, AS I HAVE INDICATED, BUT OVERWHELMINGLY SO, INDEED, OVER 70%. THAT IS TO SAY, GREATER THAN A TWO-THIRDS SUPERMAJORITY. THAT VOTE SENT A POWERFUL SIGNAL TO THE FULL HOUSE AND INDEED THE SENATE THAT IMPEACHMENT WAS OVERWHELMINGLY BIPARTISAN AND, THEREFORE, POLITICALLY AND LEGALLY LEGITIMATE.PRESIDENT NIXON’S FATE WAS SEALED, AND THE RESULT WAS INEVITABLE. THUS, LESS THAN TWO WEEKS AFTER THAT INITIAL COMMITTEE VOTE ON IMPEACHMENT, THE PRESIDENT RESIGNED. MY CONGRESSMAN DURING THE COURSE OF THOSE PROCEEDINGS COMMENTED SIMPLY AND PLAINLY THAT IT WAS, IN HIS WORDS, A GREAT AMERICAN TRAGEDY. BUT THE GREATER POINT WAS AND IS THAT IMPEACHMENT WAS NEVER DESIGNED OR INTENDED TO BE A PARTISAN TOOL AND IT WAS TO BE UNDERTAKEN ONLY AS A LAST RESORT. THIS THEN BRINGS ME TO WHAT WAS INTENDED BY THE FRAMERS OF THE CONSTITUTION RELATIVE TO IMPEACHMENT. THAT SUBJECT WILL BE ADDRESSED AT SOME LENGTH BY MY COLLEAGUE, PROFESSOR DERSHOWITZ. BUT FOR NOW, LET ME JUST SAY THAT MUCH HAS BEEN SAID BY HOUSE MANAGERS IN RELIANCE ON ALEXANDER HAMILTON’S OFT-QUOTED STATEMENT IN FEDERALIST 65. THAT’S THE RUN REPEATEDLY TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT AND CITED IN FAVOR OF AN EXPANSIVE SCOPE OF JURISDICTION BY CONGRESS OVER ALLEGED OFFENSES. IN HAMILTON’S WORDS, WHICH PROCEED FROM MISCONDUCT OF A PUBLIC OFFICIAL CONSTITUTING THE ABUSE OF OR VIOLATION OF SOME PUBLIC TRUST. THE IRONY THAT HAMILTON, THE GREATEST PROPONENT IN THIS COUNTRY OF EXECUTIVE AND PRESIDENTIAL AUTHORITY THAT PERHAPS EVER LIVED, SHOULD BE FRONT AND CENTER IN THIS PARTISAN IMPEACHMENT EFFORT TO REMOVE A DULY ELECTED PRESIDENT FROM OFFICE IS APPARENTLY LOST ON HOUSE IMPEACHMENT MANAGERS.I DARE SAY THAT HAMILTON WOULD ROLL OVER IN HIS GRAVE AT THE END OF WALL STREET AND NEW YORK CITY TO KNOW THAT CONTRARY TO WHAT HE EXPLICITLY ACKNOWLEDGED IN FEDERALIST 69 THAT A FRED CAN ONLY BE REMOVED FROM — A THAT A FEDERALIST CAN ONLY BE REMOVED UPON CONVICTION OF TREASON, HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS, WE SHOULD JUST READ THE WORD CRIME RIGHT OUT OF THE IMPEACHMENT CLAUSE OF THE CONSTITUTION AND PROCEED MERRILY ALONG THE WAY TOWARDS AN IMPEACHMENT TRIAL WITH WITNESSES NO LESS OF THAT PRESIDENT DULY ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR WHAT? ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT THAT DO NOT EVEN ALLEGE CRIMES. PRESIDENT TRUMP IS RIGHT. THAT COURSE, IF SUSTAINED, CHEAPENS THE IMPEACHMENT PROCESS AND THUS IS AN AMERICAN TRAGEDY ALL ITS OWN. NONE OTHER THAN PRESIDENT CLINTON’S HIGHLY RESPECTED WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL CHARLES RUFF DURING THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL 21 YEARS AGO STATED IN BEST, AND I QUOTE, TO ARGUE AS THE MANAGERS DO THAT THE PHRASE OTHER HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANOR HE IS WAS REALLY MEANT TO ACCOMPANY A HIGH RANGE OF OFFENSES SIMPLY FLIES IN THE FACE OF THE CLEAR INTENT OF THE FRAMERS WHO KNEW EXACTLY WHAT THOSE WORDS MEANT AND KNEW EXACTLY WHAT RISKS THEY INTENDED TO PROTECT AGAINST, CLOSE QUOTE.ONE OF THOSE CONCERNS AND RISKS, COUNSEL RUFF WENT ON TO EXPLAIN, IS THAT IMPEACHMENT BE LIMITED AND WELL-DEFINED. FOR OUR PURPOSES HERE, WHAT IS REQUIRED IS BOTH THAT CRIMES BE ALLEGED AND THAT THOSE CRIMES BE OF THE TYPE THAT IN PARTICULAR ARE SO SERIOUS THAT THEY, AGAIN IN MR. RUFF’S WORDS, QUOTE, SUBVERT OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT AND WOULD JUSTIFY OVERTURNING A POPULAR ELECTION, CLOSE QUOTE. OTHERWISE WHAT YOU HAVE IN De TOCQUEVILLE’S WORDS IS LEGISLATIVE TYRANNY. THAT TAKEN IN ITS PROPER CONTEXT, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, I RESPECTFULLY SUBMIT, IS WHAT ALEXANDER HAMILTON WELL UNDERSTOOD AND MEANT AND SO DID MY CONGRESSMAN.THAT CONGRESSMAN WAS, OF COURSE, HAMILTON FISKE, JR. HE WAS NOT REALLY INJURE BUT HAMILTON FISKE IV. HIS GREAT-GRANDFATHER WAS BORN IN 1808, SERVED AT GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK, A UNITED STATES SENATOR IMMEDIATELY BEFORE THE CIVIL WAR, AND NOTABLY AS PRESIDENT ULYSSES GRANT’S SECRETARY OF STATE. BUT WHAT I DIDN’T REALIZE AT THAT TIME BACK IN 1980, EVEN THOUGH NOW PERHAPS IT IS SO OBVIOUS, THE ORIGINAL HAMILTON FISKE WAS NAMED AFTER HIS PARENTS’ BEST FRIEND, NONE OTHER THAN ALEXANDER HAMILTON HIMSELF. WHAT CONGRESSMAN HAMILTON FISKE FROM THE WATERGATE ERA UNDERSTOOD IS THE SAME HISTORICAL LESSON THAT JEFFREY A. ENGEL, FOUNDING DIRECTOR AT SOUTHERN UNIVERSITY HAS WRITTEN IN A 2018 BOOK AN IMPEACHMENT. THE CHARGE MUST BE TREE SONGS BRIBERY OR OTHER HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS.IT MUST BE ONE FOR WHICH CLEAR AND UNMISTAKABLE PROOF CAN BE PRODUCED. ONLY IF THE EVIDENCE ACTUALLY PRODUCED AGAINST THE PRESIDENT CAN INDEED IRREFUTABLE THAT HIS OWN CONSTITUENTS IN THIS CASE THE 63 MILLION PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO VOTED FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP ACCEPT HIS GUILT OF THE OFFENSE CHARGED IN ORDER TO OVER-WELLCOMEINGLY PERSUADE A SUPERMAJORITY OF AMERICANS AND THUS THEIR SENATORS OF MALFEASANCE WARRANTING HIS REMOVAL FROM HE WAS. BECAUSE IT IS THE PRESIDENT’S UNITED STATES THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE, THE REPOSITORY OF IT AND ENTRUSTED UNDER THE CONSTITUTION WITH ALL OF THE EXECUTIVE POWER OF THE UNITED STATES — IN OTHER WORDS, AN ENTIRE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT — REMOVAL FROM OFFICE CANNOT BE BASED UPON AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE OR OFFENSES WHICH ARE IN ESSENCE NOTHING MORE THAN PARAPHRASING PRESIDENT VEILED FORD NOW WHATEVER PARTISAN MAJORITY OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES CONSIDERS THEM TO BE.TO SUPPLEMENT THAT CITED STATEMENT 50 YEARS AGO IN 1970 FROM THEN-CONGRESSMAN JERRY FORD IN CONNECTION WITH THE PROSPECT OF IMPEACHING A SUPREME COURT JUSTICE, FORD POINTEDLY CLARIFIED THAT EXECUTIVE BRANCH IMPEACHMENTS ARE DIFFERENT BECAUSE VOTERS CAN REMOVE THE PRESIDENT, THE VICE PRESIDENT, AND ALL PERSONS HOLDING OFFICE AT THEIR PLEASURE AT LEAST EVERY FOUR YEARS. TO REMOVE A PRESIDENT IN MIDTERM, IT HAS BEEN TRIED BEFORE AND NEVER DONE, WOULD INDEED, HE SAID, REQUIRE CRIMES OF THE MAG MIITUDE OF TREASON AND BRIBERY R PROFESSOR AKHIL YAMAR OF YALE LAW SCHOOL MADE ABOUT THE DANGER PRESENTED THROUGH PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENT OF TRANSFORMING AN ENTIRE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT. WHEN THEY REMOVE A DULY ELECTED PRESIDENT, THEY UNDO THE VOTES OF MILLIONS OF ORDINARY AMERICANS ON ELECTION DAY.THAT IS NOTING IS, HE CONTINUED, THAT SENATORS SHOULD DO LIGHTLY LEST WE SLIDE TOWARD A KIND OF PARLIAMENTARY GOVERNMENT THAT OUR ENTIRE STRUCTURE OF GOVERNMENT WAS DESIGNED TO REPUDIATE. IN HAMMERING HOME THE CONSTITUTIONAL UNIQUENESS OF PRESIDENTIAL IMPEACHMENTS, HE EMPHASIZED THE CASE OF RICHARD NIXON AND DISTINGUISHED THAT FROM ANDREW JOHNSON. THAT IS TO SAY, ONLY WHEN EXTREMELY HIGH CRIMES AND GROSS ABUYSES OF OFFICIAL POWER INDEED POSE A THREAT TO OUR BASIC CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM, A THREAT AS HIGH AND TRULY AS MALIGNANT TO DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT AS TREASON AND BRIBERY, HE REASONED, WOULD THE SENATE EVER BE JUSTIFIED IN NULLIFYING VOTES OF MILLIONS OF AMERICANS AND REMOVING A PRESIDENT FROM OFFICE. MY POINT IS THIS — HISTORY, OUR AMERICAN HISTORY, MATTERS. TO LISTEN TO HOW THE HOUSE MANAGERS WOULD HAVE IT, ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT ARE MERELY AS CHUCK RUFF WARNED A GENERATION AGO, EMPTY VESSELS INTO WHICH CAN BE POURED ANY NUMBER OF CHARGES, EVEN THOSE CONSIDERED AND ABANDONED.AT LEAST IN THE CASE OF PRESIDENT CLINTON’S IMPEACHMENT, THE ARTICLES ACTUALLY CHARGED CRIMES. THE SENATE THEREAFTER DETERMINED BY ITS VOTE IN THAT CASE IN EFFECT THAT WHILE THOSE CRIMES, PERJURY AND OBJECTION OF OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, MAY HAVE BEEN COMMITTED, THOSE CRIMES WERE NOT HIGH ENOUGH CRIMES DAMAGING TO THE BODY POLITIC TO WARRANT THE PRESIDENT’S REMOVAL FROM OFFICE. THAT JUDGMENT WAS OF COURSE WITHIN THIS BODY’S DISCRETION TO RENDER AND IT HAS BEEN ACCEPTED AS SUCH BY THE COUNTRY. WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH IT OR NOT AS LEGITIMATE. IT IS ALSO ONE THAT IS HISTORICALLY CONSISTENT WITH HAMILTON’S VIEWS AND MADISON’S TOO CONSIDERING THE PROPER SCOPE OF IMPEACHMENT AS APPLIED TO A PRESIDENT. WHEN I ENTERED THE SCENE AND SUCCEEDED MY COLLEAGUE AND COCOUNSEL HERE, JUDGE KEN EDGE STAR, IT WAS LEFT FOR ME TO DECIDE WHETHER PROSECUTION OF PRESIDENT CLINTON FOLLOWING IMPEACHMENT NONETHELESS WAS WARRANTED, CONSISTENT WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE’S PRINCIPLES OF FEDERAL PROSECUTION.AND THAT MATTER WAS EXHAUSTIVELY CONSIDERED. IN THE MIDST OF A FEDERAL GRAND JURY INVESTIGATION THAT I COMMISSIONED IN ORDER TO DECIDE FIRST WHETHER CRIMES IN FACT HAD BEEN COMMITTED, I FOUND THAT THEY HAD AND I LATER SAID SO PUBLICLY IN THE FINAL REPORT EXPRESSLY AUTHORIZED AND MANDATED BY CONGRESS, CONCLUDING THE LEWINSKY INVESTIGATION. SIGNIFICANTLY, THOUGH, I ALSO DETERMINED THAT THE PROSECUTION OF THE PRESIDENT, WHILE IN OR ONCE HE LEFT OFFICE, WOULD NOT BE IN THE NATIONAL INTEREST GIVEN ALTERNATIVE AVAILABLE MEANS SHORT OF PROSECUTION IN ORDER TO HOLD THE PRESIDENT ACCOUNTABLE FOR HIS CONDUCT.THOSE MEANS INCLUDED A WRITTEN ACKNOWLEDGMENT BY THE PRESIDENT TWO YEARS AFTER HIS SENATE TRIAL THAT HIS TESTIMONY UNDER OATH BEFORE THE GRAND JURY HAD IN FACT BEEN FALSE AND A RELATED AGREEMENT TO SUSPEND HIS LAW LICENSE. THE PRICE PAID BY PRESIDENT CLINTON WAS INDEED HIGH AND IT STEMMED IN THE END FROM THE NEED TO VINDICATE THE PRINCIPLE FIRST RAISED MOST PROMINENTLY DURING WATERGATE THAT NO PERSON, INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT, IS ABOVE THE LAW. DESPITE PRESIDENT CLINTON’S SUBSEQUENT PROTESTATION IN HIS MEMOIRS THAT I WAS JUST ANOTHER PROSECUTOR OUT TO EXTRACT, IN HIS WORDS, A POUND OF FLESH, I CREDIT THE PRESIDENT TO THIS DAY WITH AGREEING TO DO WHAT WAS NECESSARY IN ORDER TO EXERCISE MY DISCRETION NOT TO PROSECUTE. NAMELY, THAT FOR THE GOOD OF THE COUNTRY AND RECOGNIZING THE UNIQUE PLACE THAT THE PRESIDENT, INDEED ANY PRESIDENT, OCCUPIES IN OUR CONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY AND DISCRETION GO HAND IN HAND AND PERMITTED, INDEED DEMANDED SUCH AN APPROPRIATE RESOLUTION.IT ENABLED THE COUNTRY TO MOVE ON, AND IT WAS AS MUCH IF NOT MORE A CREDIT TO BILL CLINTON THAN TO ANY CREDIT I RECEIVED OR DESERVED THAT WE WERE ABLE TO REACH AGREEMENT AND AVOID ANY FURTHER PARTISAN RECRIMINATIONS OR INTERFERENCE WITH THE WILL OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IN ELECTING AND REELECTING PRESIDENT CLINTON IN THE FIRST PLACE AND HIS SUCCESSOR, PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH. IN SHORT, I WAS ABSOLUTELY MINDFUL AND EXCEEDINGLY CONCERNED THROUGHOUT MY TENURE AS INDEPENDENT COUNSEL THAT, ALTHOUGH CRIMES HAD BEEN COMMITTED, BILL CLINTON WAS THE ELECTED OFFICIAL PLACED IN OFFICE BY VOTERS THROUGHOUT THE NATION AND HEAD OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, AND I WAS NOT.THE LESSON FOR ME WAS A SIMPLE ONE THAT I AM SURE EVERY AMERICAN CITIZEN, WHATEVER THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE OR POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE, CAN UNDERSTAND. BE HUMBLE AND ACT WITH HUMILITY, NEVER BEING TOO SURE THAT YOU WERE RIGHT. TODAY, 20 YEARS LATER, WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED FROM THAT — WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED FROM THAT EXPERIENCE? I FEAR THAT THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS NOTHING AT ALL. IF THESE IMPEACHMENT ARTICLES NOW ARE SUSTAINED BEYOND SUMMARY RESOLUTION IN FAVOR OF ACQUITTAL, IMPEACHMENT IN THE FUTURE LITERALLY WILL MEAN NOT ONLY THAT PROOF OF HIGH CRIMES IS NO LONGER NECESSARY TO SUSTAIN THE EFFORT, BUT THAT NO CRIME AT ALL IS SUFFICIENT SO LONG AS A PARTISAN MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE SAYS SO. AND THUS, DURING THE PAST FOUR MONTHS ALONE, WE HAVE WITNESSED THE ENDLESS PROCESSION OF LEGAL THEORIES USED TO SUSTAIN THIS PARTISAN IMPEACHMENT, BE FROM TREASON TO QUID PRO QUO TO BRIBERY TO EXTORTION TO OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE TO SOLICITING AN ILLEGAL FOREIGN CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTION TO A VIOLATION OF THE EMPOWERMENT CONTROL ACT, TO WHO KNOWS WHAT ALL IS NEXT.WHAT YOU WERE LEFT WITH THEN ARE CONSTITUTIONALLY DEFICIENT ARTICLES ABANDONING ANY PRETENSE OF THE NEED TO ALLEGE CRIMES THAT ARE ANOTHER VEHICLE OR WEAPON, IF YOU WILL, IN ORDER TO DAMAGE THE PRESIDENT POLITICALLY IN AN ELECTION YEAR. IT IS, I SUBMIT, DECIDEDLY NOT IN THE COUNTRY’S BEST INTERESTS TO HAVE THE PROSECUTION OF THE GRAVE ISSUE OF IMPEACHMENT AND THE DRASTIC PROSPECT OF REMOVAL FROM OFFICE BECOME JUST POLITICS BY OTHER MEANS. ANY MORE THAN IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE FOR THE HUGE POWER OF PROSECUTION OF OFFENSES UNDER THE FEDERAL CRIMINAL CODE TO BE EXERCISED NOT ON THE MERITS WITHOUT FEAR OR FAVOR, BUT INSTEAD AS A RAW, NAKED, AND PERNICIOUS EXERCISE OF PARTISAN POWER AND ADVANTAGE. I HAVE SPENT THE BETTER PART OF MY PROFESSIONAL LIFE FOR OVER 30 YEARS AS A FEDERAL PROSECUTOR FOR 13 YEARS THROUGH TWO NORTH ARUNDEL INVESTIGATIONS, AND NOW AS A DEFENSE LAWYER FOR OVER 17 YEARS, TRYING MY LEVEL BEST ALWAYS TO ENSURE THAT POLITICS AND PROSECUTION DO NOT MIX. IT MUST NOT HAPPEN HERE. A STANDARDLESS AND PARTISAN IMPEACHMENT IS ILLEGITIMATE AND SHOULD BE REJECTED AS SUCH. OVERWHELMINGLY BY THIS BODY, I HOPE AND SUBMIT OR ALTERNATIVELY AND IF NEED BE BY ONLY A PARTISAN REPUBLICAN MAJORITY, FOR THE GOOD OF THE COUNTRY.TURNING NOW TO WHAT THE HOUSE MANAGERS HAVE ALLEGED. REGARDING THE FIRST ARTICLE, THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE REPORT ON IMPEACHMENT CONTAINS A RATHER EXTRAORDINARY STATEMENT. IT SAYS AS FOLLOWS, AND I QUOTE — ALTHOUGH PRESIDENT TRUMP’S ACTIONS NEED NOT RISE TO THE LEVEL OF A CRIMINAL VIOLATION TO JUSTIFY IMPEACHMENT, HIS CONDUCT HERE WAS CRIMINAL, CLOSE QUOTE. SO IN SHORT, WE NEEDN’T BOTHER IN AN IMPEACHMENT ARTICLE CHARGING THE PRESIDENT WITH A CRIME, IMPLICITLY RECOGNIZING THAT THERE IS INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO PROVE THAT SUCH A CRIME WAS COMMITTED, BUT WE’RE GOING TO SAY THAT THE PRESIDENT’S CONDUCT WAS CRIMINAL NONETHELESS. ASIDE FROM BEING EXCEEDINGLY UNFAIR TO CALL SOMETHING CRIMINAL AND NOT STAND BEHIND THE ALLEGATION AND ACTUALLY CHARGE IT, IT JUST AIN’T SO.I HAVE HEARD HOUSE MANAGER HAKEEM JEFFRIES ARGUE BEFORE THIS BODY THAT HE AND HIS TEAM HAVE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE OF AN EXPLICIT — HIS WORD, NOT MINE — QUID PRO QUO BY THE PRESIDENT. THAT IS, AN EXPLICIT PURPORTED AND PROPOSED EXCHANGE BY PRESIDENT TRUMP OF SOMETHING OF PERSONAL BENEFIT TO HIMSELF IN RETURN FOR AN OFFICIAL ACT BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT. AS I HAVE EXPLAINED AS FAR BACK AS NOVEMBER OF LAST YEAR IN A “TIME” MAGAZINE COVER STORY, THE PROBLEM WITH THIS LEGAL THEORY IS THAT AN UNLAWFUL QUID PRO QUO IS LIMITED TO THOSE ARRANGEMENTS THAT ARE CORRUPT. THAT IS TO SAY, ONLY THOSE THAT ARE CLEARLY AND UNMISTAKABLY IMPROPER ARE THEREFORE ILLEGAL, AND IN THE EYES OF THE LAW, THE SPECIFIC MEASURABLE BENEFIT THAT AN INVESTIGATION OR EVEN THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF AN INVESTIGATION AGAINST THE BIDENS MIGHT BRING PRESIDENT TRUMP IS AT BEST NEBULOUS. I SHOULD ADHERE ALSO THAT ANY EFFORT TO CONTEND THAT THIS PURPORTED THING OF VALUE ALSO CONSTITUTES AN ILLEGAL FOREIGN CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTION TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS FRAUGHT WITH DOUBT AS A MATTER OF LAW. INDEED, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS SAID AS MUCH.SO, TOO, HAVE COURTS WHO HAVE STRUGGLED SINCE AT LEAST THE EARLY 1990’S WITH APPLICATION OF THE FEDERAL ANTICORRUPTION LAWS TO SITUATIONS LIKE THIS WHEN AN IN-KIND BENEFIT IN THE FORM OF CAMPAIGN INTERFERENCE OR ASSISTANCE IS ALLEGED TO BE ILLEGAL. NONE OF THIS WOULD PERMIT THE REQUISITE FINDING SUPPORTED BY CLEAR AND UNMISTAKABLE EVIDENCE OF A VIOLATION OF LAW NECESSARY TO SUSTAIN IMPEACHMENT AS AN ABUSE OF POWER. BUT BACK TO MANAGER JEFFRIES’ CONTENTION. PROOF OF AN EXPLICIT QUID PRO QUO BY THE PRESIDENT, WHICH PARENTHETICALLY, AS PREVIOUSLY NOTED BY MR.CIPOLLONE, IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT, WOULD HAVE REQUIRED A VERY DIFFERENT TELEPHONE CALL THAN THE ONE PRESIDENT TRUMP ACTUALLY HAD WITH UKRAINE PRESIDENT ZELENSKY. AS I TRIED TO EXPLAIN IN THE “TIME” MAGAZINE PIECE, AN EXPLICIT QUID PRO QUO FOR ALLEGED IMPROPER CAMPAIGN INTERFERENCE WOULD HAVE HAD PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYING TO HIS COUNTERPART IN UKRAINE, IN WORDS OR SUBSTANCE, HERE’S THE DEAL, AND FOLLOWED UP BY EXPLICITLY LINKING A DEMAND FOR AN INVESTIGATION OF THE BIDENS TO THE PROVISION OR RELIEF — RELEASE OF FOREIGN AID.NONE OF THAT WAS SAID OR EVER HAPPENED. THE CALL TRANSCRIPT ITSELF DEMONSTRATES THAT BEYOND ANY DOUBT. IN THE PRESIDENT’S WORDS, READ THE TRANSCRIPT. BY THE WAY, THE DEMAND CHARACTERIZATION APPARENTLY CREEPS INTO THIS PHONE CALL LARGELY AS THE RESULT OF ARMY LIEUTENANT COLONEL ALEXANDER VINDMAN’S TESTIMONY WHERE HE EQUATES A REQUEST BASED UPON HIS MILITARY EXPERIENCE AND HAVING LISTENED IN ON THE CALL BY A SUPERIOR OFFICER, IN THIS CASE, THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF, AS THE SAME THING AS AN ORDER IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND. WHILE ALL OF THIS MAY BE TRUE IN THE MILITARY, IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKY, AS THE LEADER AND HEAD OF A SOVEREIGN NATION, WAS NOT AND IS NOT IN OUR MILITARY CHAIN OF COMMAND.I SAY THAT TO YOU, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, AS THE SON OF A U.S. ARMY COLONEL AND VIETNAM WAR VETERAN BURIED IN ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY AND THE FATHER OF A U.S. ARMY MAJOR CURRENTLY SERVING WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP’S SPACE FORCE COMMAND IN AURORA, COLORADO, NEAR DENVER. WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, LIEUTENANT COLONEL VINDMAN’S TESTIMONY IN THIS REGARD IS AT BEST, I SUBMIT TO YOU, DISTORTED AND UNPERSUASIVE. NEXT, THE PURPORTED IMPLICIT LINK BETWEEN FOREIGN AID AND THE INVESTIGATIONS OR THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THEM IS WEAK. THE MOST THAT AMBASSADOR GORDON SONDLAND WAS ABLE TO GIVE WAS HIS PRESUMPTION THAT SUCH A LINK LIKELY EXISTED, AND THAT PRESUMPTION WAS FLATLY CONTRADICTED BY THE PRESIDENT’S EXPRESS DENIAL OF THE EXISTENCE OF A QUID PRO QUO. TO AMBASSADOR SONDLAND, AS WELL AS TO SENATOR RON JOHNSON. THE PRESIDENT WAS EMPHATIC TO AMBASSADOR SONDLAND. THE PRESIDENT SAID, QUOTE, I WANT NOTHING, I WANT NO QUID PRO QUO. I JUST WANT ZELENSKY TO DO THE RIGHT THING, TO DO WHAT HE RAN ON, CLOSE QUOTE. AND TO SENATOR JOHNSON, THE SAME THING. JUST TWO WORDS. NO WAY. RECOGNIZING THIS FLAW IN THE TESTIMONY, HOUSE MANAGERS HAVE FOCUSED INSTEAD ON AN ALTERNATE QUID PRO QUO RATIONALE THAT THE EXCHANGE WAS CONDITIONED ON A FOREIGN HEAD OF STATE MEETING AT THE WHITE HOUSE IN RETURN FOR UKRAINE PUBLICLY ANNOUNCING AN INVESTIGATION OF THE BIDENS.IN THE HOUSE JUDICIARY REPORT, IT STATES AS FOLLOWS, AND I QUOTE — IT IS BEYOND QUESTION THAT OFFICIAL WHITE HOUSE VISITS CONSTITUTE A FORMAL EXERCISE OF GOVERNMENTAL POWER WITHIN THE MEANING OF McDONALD, CLOSE QUOTE. NOT SO FAST. ACTUALLY, THE SUPREME COURT IN McDONALD HELPFULLY BOILED IT DOWN TO ONLY THOSE ACTS THAT CONSTITUTE THE FORMAL EXERCISE OF GOVERNMENT POWER AND THAT ARE MORE SPECIFIC AND FOCUSED THAN A BROAD POLICY OBJECTIVE.AN EXCHANGE RESULTING IN MEETINGS, EVENTS, PHONE CALLS, AS THOSE TURNS ARE TYPICALLY UNDERSTOOD AS BEING ROUTINE, ACCORDING TO THE SUPREME COURT’S DEFINITION OF AN OFFICIAL ACT, DO NOT COUNT. THE FACT THAT THE MEETING INVOLVED WAS A FORMAL ONE, WITH ALL OF THE TRAPPINGS OF A STATE VISIT BY THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE AND HOSTED BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. THE SUPREME COURT IS TALKING ABOUT AN OFFICIAL ACT AS A FORMAL EXERCISE OF DECISION-MAKING POWER, NOT THE FORMALITY OF THE VISIT. EVEN IF THE ALLEGATION WERE TRUE, THIS COULD NOT CONSTITUTE A QUID PRO QUO. I SHOULD KNOW. I ARGUED IN EFFECT THE CONTRARY PROPOSITION IN THE UNITED STATES VERSUS SUN DIAMOND BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT OVER 20 YEARS AGO IN 1999. THAT PROPOSITION LOST UNANIMOUSLY. THE VOTE WAS 9-0. IN ANY EVENT, THE COVETED MEETING — AND IT WAS, AFTER ALL, JUST A MEETING, WHETHER AT THE WHITE HOUSE OR NOT WAS NOT PERMANENTLY WITHHELD. IT LATER HAPPENED BETWEEN THE TWO PRESIDENTS AT THE UNITED NATIONS IN NEW YORK CITY, AT THE FIRST AVAILABLE OPPORTUNITY IN SEPTEMBER, 2019.FINALLY, THE ARGUMENT BY CHAIRMAN JERRY NADLER THAT THIS CALL BY PRESIDENT TRUMP WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY REPRESENTED A, QUOTE, EXTORTION DEMAND, CLOSE QUOTE, IS PATENTLY RIDICULOUS. THE ESSENTIAL ELEMENT OF THE CRIME OF EXTORTION IS PRESSURE. NO PRESSURE WAS EXERCISED OR EXERTED DURING THE CALL. UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS, INCLUDING PRESIDENT ZELENSKY HIMSELF, HAVE SINCE REPEATEDLY DENIED THAT ANY SUCH PRESSURE EXISTED. INDEED, TO THE CONTRARY, THE EVIDENCE STRONGLY SUGGESTS UKRAINE WAS PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF RESISTING ANY EFFORTS TO ENTANGLE ITSELF IN UNITED STATES DOMESTIC PARTY POLITICS AND PARTISANSHIP. WHAT THEN REMAINS OF THE FIRST ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT? NO CRIMES WERE COMMITTED. INDEED, NO CRIMES WERE EVEN FORMALLY ALLEGED. IN THAT REGARD, WHAT EXACTLY IS LEFT? IT’S NOT TREASON. UKRAINE IS OUR ALLY, NOT OUR ENEMY OR OUR ADVERSARY, AND RUSSIA IS NOT OUR ENEMY, ONLY OUR ADVERSARY. IT’S NOT BRIBERY.THERE’S NO QUID PRO QUO. IT’S NOT EXTORTION, NO PRESSURE. IT’S NOT AN ILLEGAL FOREIGN CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTION. THE BENEFIT OF THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF AN INVESTIGATION IS NOT TANGIBLE ENOUGH TO CONSTITUTE AN IN-KIND CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTION WARRANTING PROSECUTION UNDER FEDERAL LAW. AND IT’S ALSO NOT A VIOLATION OF THE IMPOUNDMENT CONTROL ACT. LET’S TAKE A LOOK AT THAT LAST ONE FOR A MOMENT, SHALL WE? THE U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE, AN ARM OF THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS, IN ITS INFINITE WISDOM HAS DECIDED, CONTRARY TO THE POSITION OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH OFFICES — EXECUTIVE BRANCH OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET, OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET, THAT WHILE THE PRESIDENT MAY TEMPORARILY WITHHOLD FUNDS FROM OBLIGATION BUT NOT BEYOND THE END OF THE FISCAL YEAR, HE MAY NOT DO SO WITH VAGUE OR GENERAL ASSERTIONS OF POLICY PRIORITIES CONTRARY TO THE WILL OF CONGRESS. THE PRESIDENT’S RESPONSE TO THIS INTERBRANCH DISPUTE BETWEEN CONGRESS AND THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH WAS TO ASSERT HIS AUTHORITY OVER FOREIGN POLICY TO DETERMINE THE TIMING OF THE BEST USE OF FUNDS. ULTIMATELY, THIS IS A DISPUTE THAT HAS CONSTITUTIONAL IMPLICATIONS UNDER SEPARATION OF POWER PRINCIPLES ABOUT WHICH THIS BODY IS WELL FAMILIAR.IT PITS THE PRESIDENT’S CONSTITUTIONAL PREROGATIVES TO CONTROL FOREIGN POLICY AGAINST CONGRESS’ REASONABLE EXPECTATION THAT THE PRESIDENT WILL COMPLY WITH THE CONSTITUTION’S FAITHFUL EXECUTION OF THE LAW REQUIREMENT OF HIS OATH OF OFFICE. THIS ISSUE HAS COME UP BEFORE WITH OTHER PRESIDENTS. THERE IS A HUGE CONSTITUTIONAL DEBATE AMONG LEGAL SCHOLARS ABOUT WHO’S RIGHT. LAW REVIEW ARTICLES HAVE BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT IT. ONE AS RECENTLY AS LAST JUNE IN “THE HARVARD LAW REVIEW.” CONGRESS, THROUGH ITS ARM, THE G.A.O., HAVE AN OPPOSING VIEW FROM THAT OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND O.M.B. BIG SURPRISE. I AM REMINDED OF ONE OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY’S FAMOUS PRESS CONFERENCES WHERE HE WAS ASKED TO COMMENT ABOUT A REPORT THAT THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE HAD VOTED A RESOLUTION THAT CONCLUDED HE WAS A TOTAL FAILURE AS PRESIDENT. HE FAMOUSLY QUIPPED, I AM SURE THAT IT WAS PASSED UNANIMOUSLY. THAT IS ALL THAT THIS IS HERE, POLITICS. NO MORE, NO LESS. AND IN THE END, WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? THE TEMPORARY HOLD WAS LIFTED AND THE FUNDS WERE RELEASED, AS THEY HAD TO BE UNDER THE LAW AND AS ACKNOWLEDGED WAS REQUIRED BY NONE OTHER THAN ACTING CHIEF OF STAFF MICK MULVANEY 19 DAYS AFTER THE END OF THE FISCAL YEAR ON SEPTEMBER 11, 2019.IN ANY EVENT, AN ALLEGED VIOLATION OF THE IMPOUNDMENT ACT CAN NO MORE SUSTAIN AN IMPEACHMENT ARTICLE THAN CAN AN ASSERTION OF EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE IN OPPOSITION TO A CONGRESSIONAL SUBPOENA ABSENT A FINAL DECISION OF A COURT ORDERING COMPLIANCE WITH THAT SUBPOENA. MERE ASSERTION OF A PRIVILEGE OR OBJECTION IN A LEGITIMATE INTERBRANCH DISPUTE IS A CONSTITUTIONAL PREROGATIVE. IT SHOULD NEVER RESULT IN AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE FOR ABUSE OF POWER OR OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE. AND YET IN A LAST-DITCH EFFORT TO REFRAME ITS FIRST ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT ON ABUSE OF POWER, HOUSE MANAGERS, AS PART OF THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE REPORT, HAVE GONE BACK INTO HISTORY, ALWAYS A TREASURE US ARE ENDEAVOR FOR LAWYERS. THEY NOW ARGUE THAT PRESIDENT ANDREW JOHNSON’S IMPEACHMENT FROM OVER 150 YEARS AGO FOLLOWING THE END OF THE CIVIL WAR AND DURING RECONSTRUCTION WAS NOT ABOUT A VIOLATION OF THE TENURE OF OFFICE ACT, WHICH AFTER ALL WAS THE VIOLATION OF LAW CHARGED AS THE PRINCIPAL ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT BUT INSTEAD RESTED ON HIS USE OF POWER WITH I WILL LEGITIMATE MOTIVES.IN AN AHISTORICAL SLEIGHT OF HAND, ONLY OF THE “NEW YORK TIMES” 1916 SERIES, A SERIES ROUNDLY CRITICIZED BY TWO OF MY PRINCETON HISTORY PROFESSORS AS INACCURATE, HOUSE MANAGERS NOW CLAIM THAT PRESIDENT JOHNSONS REMOVAL OF LINCOLN’S SECRETARY OF WAR ED WINWIN STANTON WITHOUT CONGRESS’ PERMISSION IN VIOLATION OF A STATUTE LATER FOUND TO BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL IS BEST UNDERSTOOD WITH THE BENEFIT OF REVISIONIST HINDSIGHT TO BE MOTIVATED NOT BY HIS DESIRE TO VIOLATE THE CONSTITUTE BUT ON HIS ILLEGITIMATE USE OF POWER TO UNDERMINE RECONSTRUCTION AND SUBORDINATE AFRICAN AMERICANS FOLLOWING THE CIVIL WAR. THAT ALL MAY BE TRUE, BUT IT IS ANOTHER THING ALTOGETHER TO CLAIM THAT THAT MOTIVE ACTUALLY WAS THE BASIS OF JOHNSON’S IMPEACHMENT. PROFESSOR LAURENCE TRIBE, WHO WAS THE SOURCE FOR THIS MISGUIDED REINTERPRETATION OF THE JOHNSON IMPEACHMENT, SIMPLY SUBSTITUTES HIS OWN SELF-DESCRIBED FAR MORE COMPELLING BASIS FOR JOHNSON’S REMOVAL FROM OFFICE FROM THE ONE THAT THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ACTUALLY VOTED ON AND THE SENATE CONSIDERED AT HIS IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.THERE HAS BEEN AN AWFUL LOT OF THAT GOES ON IN THIS IMPEACHMENT. PEOPLE SUBSTITUTING THEIR OWN INTERPRETATIONS FOR THE ONES THAT THE PRINCIPLES INSIST ON. AT ANY RATE, A PRESIDENT’S SO-CALLED ILLEGITIMATE MOTIVES IN WIELDING POWER CAN NO MORE FRAME AND LEGITIMIZE THE JOHNSON IMPEACHMENT THAN RECASTING THE NIXON IMPEACHMENT, AS REALLY ABOUT HIS MOTIVES IN DEFYING CONGRESS OVER THE COUNTRY’S FOREIGN POLICY IN VIETNAM, AGAIN ALL OF THAT MAY BE TRUE BUT IT HAS NOTHING REALLY TO DO WITH IMPEACHMENT. NOT ONLY THAT, IT’S ALSO BAD HISTORY. AS RECOGNIZED 65 YEARS AGO BY THEN-SENATOR JOHN F. KENNEDY IN HIS BOOK “PROFILES IN COURAGE,” PRESIDENT JOHNSON WAS SAVED FROM REMOVAL BY ONE VOTE AND BY ONE COURAGEOUS SENATOR WHO RECOGNIZED THE LEGISLATIVE OVERREACH THAT THE TENURE OF OFFICE ACT REPRESENTED. QUOTING NOW FROM SENATOR HE HAD MONTANA G. ROSS IN “PREFILES IN COURAGE” WHO EXPLAINED HIS VOTE AS FOLLOWS. QUOTE, THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE AS A COORDINATE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT WAS ON TRIAL. IF THE PRESIDENT MUST STEP DOWN UPON INSUFFICIENT PROOF AND FROM PARTISAN CONSIDERATIONS, THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT WOULD BE DEGRADED, CLOSE QUOTE.SO, TOO, HERE. CONTRARY APPARENTLY TO THE FASHION NOW, SENATOR ROSS’ ACTION EVENTUALLY WAS PRAISED AND ACCEPTED SEVERAL DECADES AFTER HIS SERVICE AND AGAIN MANY YEARS LATER BY PRESIDENT KENNEDY AS A COURAGEOUS STAND AGAINST LEGISLATIVE MOB RULE. PROFESSOR DERSHOWITZ WILL HAVE MORE TO SAY ABOUT ONE OTHER COURAGEOUS SENATOR FROM THAT IMPEACHMENT, MORE ON THAT LATER. FOR NOW, THE POINT IS THAT OUR HISTORY DEMONSTRATES THAT PRESIDENTS SHOULD NOT BE SUBJECT TO IMPEACHMENT BASED UPON BAD OR ILL MOTIVES AND ANY THOUGHT TO THE CONTRARY SHOULD STRIKE YOU, I SUBMIT, AS EXCEEDINGLY DANGEROUS TO OUR CONSTITUTIONAL STRUCTURE OF GOVERNMENT.IF THAT WERE THE STANDARD, WHAT PRESIDENT WOULD EVER BE SAFE BY WAY OF IMPEACHMENT FROM WHAT HAMILTON DECRIED AS THE, QUOTE, PERSECUTION OF AN INTEMPERATE OR DESIGNING MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, CLOSE QUOTE. THE CENTRAL IMPORT OF THE ABUSE OF POWER ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT — INDEED, WHEN ADD TOGETHER WITH THE OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE ARTICLE — IS A RURAL NOT FAR OFF FROM WHAT ONE CITIZEN TWEET I SAW BACK IN DECEMBER DESCRIBED AS ARTICLE 1, DEMOCRATS DON’T LIKE PRESIDENT TRUMP. ARTICLE 2, DEMOCRATS CAN’T BEAT PRESIDENT TRUMP. PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT REMOVABLE FROM OFFICE JUST BECAUSE A DESIGNING MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE, AS REPRESENTED BY THEIR MANAGERS, BELIEVES THAT THE PRESIDENT ABUSED THE POWER OF HIS OFFICE DURING THE JULY 25 CALL WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY. THE CONSTITUTION REQUIRES MORE. TO IGNORE THE REQUIREMENT OF PROVING THAT A CRIME WAS COMMITTED IS TO SIDESTEP THE CONSTITUTIONAL DESIGN AS WELL AS THE LESSONS OF HISTORY.NOW, I KNOW THAT MANY OF YOU MAY COME DO CONCLUDE OR MAY HAVE ALREADY CONCLUDED THAT THE CALL WAS LESS THAN PERFECT AND I HAVE SAID ON ANY NUMBER OF OCCASIONS PREVIOUSLY AND PUBLICLY THAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER IN ATTEMPTING TO SPUR ACTION BY A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT IN COORDINATING LAW ENFORCEMENT EFFORTS WITH OUR GOVERNMENT TO HAVE DONE SO THROUGH PROPER CHANNELS. WHILE THE PRESIDENT CERTAINLY ENJOYS THE POWER TO DO OTHERWISE, THERE IS CONSEQUENCE TO THAT ACTION AS WE HAVE NOW WITNESSED. AFTER ALL, THAT IS WHY WE ARE ALL HERE. BUT IT IS ANOTHER THING ALTOGETHER TO CLAIM THAT SUCH CONDUCT IS CLEARLY AND UNMISTAKABLY IMPEACHABLE AS AN ABUSE OF POWER.THERE CAN BE NO SERIOUS QUESTION THAT THIS PRESIDENT OR ANY PRESIDENT ACTS LAWFULLY IN REQUESTING FOREIGN ASSISTANCE WITH INVESTIGATIONS IS INTO POSSIBLE CORRUPTION, EVEN WHEN IT MIGHT POTENTIALLY INVOLVE ANOTHER POLITICIAN. TO ARGUE OTHERWISE WOULD BE TO ENGAGE IN THE SPECIOUS CONTENTION THAT A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE OR FOR THAT MATTER ANY CANDIDATE ENJOYS ABSOLUTE IMMUNITY FROM INVESTIGATION DURING THE COURSE OF A CAMPAIGN. I CAN TELL YOU THAT’S NOT THE CASE FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE.I DID SO DURING 2000 IN INVESTIGATING HILLARY CLINTON WHILE SHE WAS RUNNING FOR OFFICE TO BECOME A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM NEW YORK TO WHICH SHE WAS ELECTED. MY POINT SIMPLY THIS — THIS PRESIDENT HAS BEEN IMPEACHED AND STANDS TRIAL HERE IN THE SENATE FOR ALLEGEDLY DOING SOMETHING INDIRECTLY ABOUT WHICH HE WAS ENTIRELY PERMITTED TO DO DIRECTLY. THAT CANNOT FORM A BASIS AS AN ABUSE OF POWER ARTICLE SUFFICIENT TO WARRANT HIS REMOVAL FROM OFFICE. TURNING NOW TO THE SECOND ARTICLE OF IMPEACHMENT, AS WE ARGUED IN OUR WRITTEN TRIAL BRIEF, AT THE OUTSET IT MUST BE NOTED THAT IT’S AT LEAST A LILIED FOR HOUSE MANAGERS TO BE ARGUING THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SOMEHOW OBSTRUCTED CONGRESS WHEN HE DECLASSIFIED AND RELEASE THE WHAT IS THE CENTRAL PIECE OFEST IN THIS CASE, AND THAT’S OF COURSE THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE JULY 25 CALL, AS WELL AS THE CALL WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKY THAT PRECEDED IT ON APRIL 21, 2019.RELEASE OF THAT FULL CALL RECORD SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE END OF THIS CLAIM OF OBSTRUCTION, BUT APPARENTLY NOT. INSTEAD, AGAIN RELYING ON UNITED STATES V. NIXON, HOUSE MANAGERS HAVE PROFFERED A BROAD CLAIM TO DOCUMENTS AND WITNESSES IN AN IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY NOTWITHSTANDING THE NIXON COURT’S LIMITED HOLDING THAT AN OBJECTION BY THE PRESIDENT BASED ON EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE COULD ONLY BE OVERCOME IN THE LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES PRESENTED THERE WHERE THE INFORMATION SOUGHT WAS ALSO MATERIAL TO THE PREPARATION OF THE DEFENSE BY HIS COCONSPIRATORS IN PENDING CASES AWAITING TRIAL FOLLOWING INDICTMENT. IN OTHER WORDS, A DEFENDANT’S SIXTH AMENDMENT RIGHT TO A FAIR TRIAL IN COLLATERAL PROCEEDINGS WAS WHAT THE COURT ACTUALLY FOUND DISPOSITIVE IN REJECTING THE PRESIDENT’S CLAIM H. CLAIM OF MISSILE TO PREVENT CONGRESS FROM GAINING ACCESS TO THE WATERGATE TAPES. ALL SUBSEQUENT ADMINISTRATIONS HAVE DEFENDED THAT NARROW EXCEPTION AGAINST ANY GENERAL CLAIM OF ACCESS TO EXECUTIVE BRANCH CONFIDENTIAL COMMUNICATIONS, DOCUMENTS, AND WITNESSES WHO ARE THE — OR WHO ARE THE WITNESSES OR THE PRESIDENT’S CLOSEST ADVISORS.THUS, IT SHOULD BE A MATTER OF ACCEPTED WISDOM AND HISTORICAL PREMISE THAT A PRESIDENT CANNOT BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE FOR INVOKING ESTABLISHED LEGAL RIGHTS, DEFENSES, PRIVILEGES, AND IMMUNITIES EVEN IN THE FACE OF SUBPOENAS FOR HOUSE COMMITTEES. BACK IN 1998 PROFESSOR TRIBE CALLED OUT ANY ARGUMENT TO THE CONTRARY AS PRIVILEGOUS AND DANGEROUS. HOUSE MANAGERS RESPOND NOW BY ARGUING NONETHELESS THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS NO RIGHT TO DEFY A LEGITIMATE SUBPOENA PARTICULARLY, I SUPPOSE, WHEN THEIR IMPEACHMENT EFFORTS ARE AT STAKE. AND, THUS, IT WILL AN ISSUE RISING TO THE LEVELLEN AN INTERBRANCH CONFLICT THAT IN OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT ONLY ACCOMMODATION BETWEEN THE BRANCHES AND ULTIMATELY COURTS CAN FINALLALLY RESOLVE. THE HOUSE CHOSE TO FOREGO THAT CHOICE AND TO PLOW FORWARD WITH IMPEACHMENT. HOUSE MANAGERS CANNOT BE HEARD TO COMPLAIN NOW THAT THEIR OWN STRATEGIC CHOICE CAN FORM ANY BASIS TO PLACE BLAME ON THE PRESIDENT FOR IT AND, WORSE YET, TO THEN IMPEACH HIM ON THAT BASIS AND SEEK HIS REMOVAL FROM OFFICE.THAT’S NO BASIS AT ALL. AS PROFESSOR JONATHAN TURLEY PERSUASIVELY HAS EXPLAINED. COMPLIANCE WITH A LEGITIMATE SUBPOENA IS IN FORCE OWN A CLAIM OF EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE OR PRESIDENTIAL IMMUNITY ONLY WHEN A COURT WITH JURISDICTION SAYS SO IN A FINAL DECISION. IN SUM, CALLING A SUBPOENA LEGITIMATE, AS HOUSE MANAGERS HAVE DONE HERE, DOES NOT MAKE IT SO. AN ANALOGY TAKEN FROM BASEBALL THAT I BELIEVE THE CHIEF JUSTICE MIGHT APPRECIATE, MAKES THE POINT. A LONG TIME MAJOR LEAGUE UMPIRE NAMED BILL CLEM, WHO WORKED UNTIL 1941 AFTER 37 YEARS IN THE BIG LEAGUES, WAS ONCE ASKED DURING A GAME BY A PLAYER WHETHER A BALL WAS FAIR OR FOUL. THE UMPIRE REPLIED, IT AIN’T NOTHING UNTIL I CALL IT. WELL, I SAY THE SAME THING TO CHAIRMAN SCHIFF NOW. IT’S NOT A LEGITIMATE AND, THEREFORE, ENFORCEABLE SUBPOENA UNTIL A COURT SAYS THAT IT IS. PRECEDING THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT AND IN RESPONSE TO DEMANDS NOT JUST FROM THE WHITE WATER INDEPENDENT COUNSEL BUT FROM SEVERAL OTHER INDEPENDENT COUNSEL INVESTIGATIONS THAT WERE ONGOING AT THAT TIME — I KNOW, I WAS IN ONE OF THEM — THE WHITE HOUSE REPEATEDLY ASSERTED CLAIMS OF EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE. MANY OF THOSE CLAIMS LITIGATED FOR MONTHS, NOT WREAKS, AND IN SOME CASES FOR YEARS.SO WHEN I HEAR MR. SCHIFF’S COMPLAINT THAT THE HOUSE’S REQUEST FOR FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL DON McGAHN’S TESTIMONY GRAND JURY TESTIMONY AND OTHER DOCUMENTS HAVE BEEN DRAWN OUT SINCE APRIL OF LAST YEAR, I CAN ONLY SAY? RESPONSE, BOOHOO. DID I THINK AT THAT TIME THAT MANY OF THOSE CLAIMS WERE FRIVOLOUS AND AN ABUSE OF THE JUDICIAL PROCESS? OF COURSE. THAT WAS THE DETERMINATION OF THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE DURING THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT. WHAT DID THEY DO ABOUT IT? NOTHING. THE COMMITTEE PROPERLY CONCLUDED THEN THAT THOSE ASSERTIONS OF PRIVILEGE, EVEN IF ILL-FOUNDED, DID NOT CONSTITUTE AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE. DID I BELIEVE THAT THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION’S ACTIONS IN THIS REGARD HAD ADVERSELY IMPACTED OUR INVESTIGATION? YOU BET I DID.AND I SAID SO IN THE FINAL REPORT. BUT NEVER DID I SERIOUSLY CONSIDER THAT THOSE EFFORTS BY THE WHITE HOUSE, ALTHOUGH ENDLESSLY FRUSTRATING AND DAMAGING TO THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL’S INVESTIGATION, WOULD CONSTITUTE THE CRIME OF OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE OR ANY RELATED IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE FOR OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS. INSTEAD, I AND MY COLLEAGUES DID THE BEST THAT WE COULD IN REACHING ACCOMMODATION WITH THE WHITE HOUSE, WHERE POSSIBLE, OR THROUGH LITIGATION, WHEN NECESSARY, IN ORDER TO COMPLETE THE TASK AT HAND TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY TO DO SO. ANY CONTENTION THAT WHAT HAS TRANSPIRED HERE INVOLVING IN ADMINISTRATION’S ASSERTION OF VALID AND WELL-RECOGNIZED CLAIMS OF PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITY IS SOMEHOW CONTRARY TO LAW AND IMPEACHABLE IS LUDICROUS. IN SHORT, TO ADD TO THE PARADE OF CRIMINAL OFFENSES NOT SUSTAINED ON THIS IMPEACHMENT, THERE IS NO OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE OR OF CONGRESS, PERIOD. THE PRESIDENT CANNOT BE IMPEACHED AND REMOVED FROM OFFICE FOR ASSERTING SUBJECT TO JUDICIAL REVIEW WHAT HE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO ASSERT. THAT IS TRUE NOW AS IT HAS BEEN TRUE OF EVERY PRESIDENT ALL THE WAY BACK TO PRESIDENT GEORGE WASHINGTON.IN SHORT, AS TO BOTH ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT, ALL THE PRESIDENT IS ASKING FOR HERE IS BASIC FAIRNESS AND TO BE HELD TO THE VERY SAME STANDARD THAT BOTH HOUSE SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI PROFFERED IN MARCH 2019 AND WHICH PREVIOUSLY WAS ENDORSED DURING THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT IN STRIKINGLY SIMILAR LANGUAGE BY HOUSE MANAGER JERRY NADLER 20 ODD YEARS AGO IN 1998. THE EVIDENCE MUST BE NOTHING LESS THAN, QUOTE, COMPELLING, OVERWHELMING, AND BIPARTISAN, CLOSE QUOTE. WE AGREE. NO AMOUNT OF WITNESS TESTIMONY, DOCUMENTS, HIGH FIVE’S, FIST BUMPS, SIGNING PENS OR OTHERWISE ARE EVER GOING TO BE SUFFICIENT TO SUSTAIN THIS IMPEACHMENT UNDER THE DEMOCRATS’ OWN STANDARD.WITH THAT, I AM READY TO CONCLUDE. THE PRESIDENT’S ONLY INSTRUCTION TO ME FOR THIS TRIAL WAS A SIMPLE ONE — DO WHAT YOU THINK IS RIGHT. AS A COUNTRY, WE NEED TO PUT A STOP TO DOING ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN DO AND START DOING WHAT’S RIGHT AND WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE IN THE NATION’S BEST INTEREST. A BRAZENLY PARTISAN POLITICAL IMPEACHMENT BY HOUSE DEMOCRATS IS NOT, I SUBMIT, IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS, WE WILL ALL BE JUDGED IN THE EYES OF HISTORY ON WHETHER IN THIS MOMENT WE ACTED WITH THE COUNTRY’S OVERRIDING WELFARE FIRMLY IN MIND RATHER THAN IN ADVANCING THE CAUSE OF PARTISAN POLITICAL ADVANTAGE.I HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED AS AN ARTICLE OF FAITH THAT IN GOOD TIMES AND IN HARD TIMES AND EVEN IN BAD TIMES, WITH MATTERS OF IMPORTANCE AT STAKE THAT THIS COUNTRY GETS THE BIG THINGS RIGHT. I HAVE SEEN THAT IN MY OWN LIFE AND FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE, EVEN IN WASHINGTON, D.C. WELL, MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, THIS WHAT LIES BEFORE YOU NOW IS JUST SUCH A BIG THING. THE NEXT ELECTION AWAITS. ELECTION DAY IS ONLY NINE MONTHS AWAY. AS SENATOR DALE BUMPERS ELOQUENTLY CONCLUDED IN ARGUING AGAINST PRESIDENT CLINTON’S REMOVAL FROM OFFICE, AND I QUOTE, THAT’S THE DAY WHEN WE REACH ACROSS THE AISLE AND HOLD HANDS, DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, AND WE SAY WIN OR LOSE, WE WILL ABIDE BY THE DECISION.IT IS A SOLEMN EVENT, PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS, AND IT SHOULD NOT, THEY SHOULD NOT BE UNDONE LIGHTLY OR JUST BECAUSE ONE SIDE HAS POLITICAL CLOUT AND THE OTHER ONE DON’T, CLOSE QUOTE. OTHERWISE, AS ABRAHAM LINCOLN WARNED US DURING HIS FIRST INAUGURAL ADDRESS, AND I QUOTE, IF THE MINORITY WILL NOT ACQUIESCE, THE GOVERNMENT MUST CEASE SO THAT IN REJECTING THE MAJORITY PRINCIPLE, ANARCHY IN SOME FORM IS ALL THAT IS LEFT. CLOSE QUOTE. THIS IMPEACHMENT AND THE REFUSAL TO ACCEPT THE RESULTS OF THE LAST ELECTION IN 2016 CANNOT BE LEFT TO STAND. FOR THE REASONS STATED, THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT, THEREFORE, SHOULD BE REJECTED AND THE PRESIDENT MUST BE ACQUITTED. MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.WITH THAT, MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, I YIELD BACK TO MR. SEKULOW. THANK YOU. MR. SEKULOW: MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, WE’RE GOING TO NOW DELVE INTO THE CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES FOR A BIT, AND OUR PRESENTER IS PROFESSOR ALAN DERSHOWITZ, THE PROFESSOR EMERITUS AT HARVARD LAW SCHOOL. HE SERVED AS A LAW CLERK FOR JUSTICE ARTHUR GOLDBERG OF THE U.S. SUPREME COURT. AT THE AGE OF 28, PROFESSOR DERSHOWITZ BECAME THE YOUNGEST TENURED PROFESSOR AT HARVARD LAW SCHOOL. MR. DERSHOWITZ SPENT 50 YEARS AS AN ACTIVE FACULTY MEMBERS AT LAW SCHOOL TEACHING LAW SCHOOLS IN CLAUSES RANGING FROM CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, CONSTITUTIONAL LITIGATION, LEGAL ETHICS AND CASES ON IMPEACHMENT. HE WILL ADDRESS THE CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES RAISED BY THESE ARTICLES.MR. DERSHOWITZ: MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, DISTINGUISHED MEMBERS OF THE SENATE, OUR FRIENDS, LAWYERS, FELLOW LAWYERS, IT’S A GREAT HONOR FOR ME TO STAND BEFORE YOU TODAY TO PRESENT A CONSTITUTIONAL ARGUMENT AGAINST THE IMPEACHMENT AND REMOVAL NOT ONLY OF THIS PRESIDENT, BUT OF ALL AND ANY FUTURE PRESIDENTS WHO MAY BE CHARGED WITH THE UNCONSTITUTIONAL GROUNDS OF ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS. I STAND BEFORE YOU TODAY AS I STOOD IN 1973, IN 1974 FOR THE PROTECTION OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL AND PROCEDURAL RIGHTS OF RICHARD NIXON, WHO I PERSONALLY ABHORRED AND WHOSE IMPEACHMENT I PERSONALLY FAVORED. AND AS I STOOD FOR THE RIGHTS OF BILL CLINTON, WHO I ADMIRED AND WHOSE IMPEACHMENT I STRONGLY OPPOSED. I STAND AGAINST THE APPLICATION AND MISAPPLICATION OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL CRITERIA IN EVERY CASE AND AGAINST ANY PRESIDENT WITHOUT REGARD TO WHETHER I SUPPORT HIS OR HER PARTIES OR POLICIES.I WOULD BE MAKING THE VERY SAME CONSTITUTIONAL ARGUMENT HAD HILLARY CLINTON, FOR WHOM I VOTED, BEEN ELECTED AND HAD A REPUBLICAN HOUSE VOTED TO IMPEACH HER ON THESE UNCONSTITUTIONAL GROUNDS. I AM HERE TODAY BECAUSE I LOVE MY COUNTRY AND OUR CONSTITUTION. EVERYONE IN THIS ROOM SHARES THAT LOVE. I WILL ARGUE THAT OUR CONSTITUTION AND ITS TERMS, HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS, DO NOT ENCOMPASS THE TWO ARTICLES CHARGING ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS.IN OFFERING THESE ARGUMENTS, I STAND IN THE FOOTSTEPS AND IN THE SPIRIT OF JUSTICE BENJAMIN CURTIS WHO WAS OF COUNSEL TO IMPEACH PRESIDENT ANDREW JOHNSON AND WHO EXPLAINED TO THE SENATE THAT, QUOTE, A GREATER PRINCIPLE WAS AT STAKE THAN THE FATE OF ANY PARTICULAR PRESIDENT. AND OF WILLIAM EVERETT, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE, ANOTHER ONE OF ANDREW JOHNSON’S LAWYERS, WHO REPORTEDLY SAID THAT HE HAD COME TO THE DEFENSE TABLE NOT AS A PARTISAN, NOT AS A SYMPATHIZER, BUT TO DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION. THE CONSTITUTION OF COURSE PROVIDES THAT THE SENATE HAS THE SOLE ROLE AND POWER TO TRY ALL IMPEACHMENTS. IN EXERCISING THAT POWER, THE SENATE MUST CONSIDER THREE ISSUES IN THIS CASE. THE FIRST IS WHETHER THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED BY THE HOUSE MANAGERS ESTABLISHES BY THE APPROPRIATE STANDARD OF PROOF, PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, THAT THE FACTUAL ALLEGATIONS OCCURRED.THE SECOND IS WHETHER, IF THESE FACTUAL ALLEGATIONS OCCURRED, DID THEY RISE TO THE LEVEL OF ABUSE OF POWER AND/OR OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS? FINALLY THE SENATE MUST DETERMINE WHETHER ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS ARE CONSTITUTIONALLY AUTHORIZED CRITERIA FOR IMPEACHMENT. THE FIRST ISSUE IS LARGELY FACTUAL, AND I LEAVE THAT TO OTHERS. THE SECOND IS A COMBINATION OF TRADITIONAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, AND I WILL TOUCH ON THOSE. THE THIRD IS A MATTER OF PURE CONSTITUTIONAL LAW. DO CHARGES OF ABUSE AND OBSTRUCTION RISE TO THE LEVEL OF IMPEACHABLE OFFENSES UNDER THE CONSTITUTION? I WILL BEGIN AS ALL CONSTITUTION ANALYSIS BEGINS, WITH THE TEXT OF THE CONSTITUTION GOVERNING IMPEACHMENT. I WILL THEN EXAMINE WHY THE FRAMERS SELECTED THE WORDS THEY DID AS THE SOLE CRITERIA AUTHORIZING IMPEACHMENT.IN MAKING MY PRESENTATION, I WILL TRANSPORT YOU BACK TO A HOT SUMMER IN PHILADELPHIA AND A COLD WINTER IN WASHINGTON. I WILL INTRODUCE YOU TO PATRIOTS AND IDEAS THAT HELPED SHAPE OUR GREAT NATION. TO PREPARE FOR THIS JOURNEY, I HAVE IMMERSED MYSELF IN A LOT OF DUSTY OLD VOLUMES FROM THE 18th AND 19th CENTURY. I ASK YOUR INDULGENCE AS I QUOTE FROM THE WISDOM OF OUR FOUNDERS. THIS RETURN TO THE DAYS OF YESTERYEAR IS NECESSARY BECAUSE THE ISSUE TODAY IS NOT WHAT THE CRITERIA OF IMPEACHMENT SHOULD BE, NOT WHAT A LEGISLATIVE BODY OR A CONSTITUTIONAL BODY MIGHT TODAY DECIDE ARE THE PROPER CRITERIA FOR IMPEACHMENT OF A PRESIDENT, BUT WHAT THE FRAMERS OF OUR CONSTITUTION ACTUALLY CHOSE AND WHAT THEY EXPRESSLY AND IMPLICITLY REJECTED. I WILL ASK WHETHER THE FRAMERS WOULD HAVE ACCEPTED SUCH VAGUE AND OPEN-ENDED TERMS AS ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS AS GOVERNING CRITERIA. I WILL SHOW BY A CLOSE REVIEW OF THE HISTORY THAT THEY DID NOT AND WOULD NOT ACCEPT SUCH CRITERIA FOR FEAR THAT THESE CRITERIA WOULD TURN OUR NEW REPUBLIC INTO A BRITISH-STYLE PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY IN WHICH THE CHIEF EXECUTIVES’ TENURE WOULD BE, IN THE WORDS OF JAMES MADISON, THE FATHER OF OUR CONSTITUTION, AT THE PLEASURE OF THE LEGISLATURE.THE CONCLUSION I WILL OFFER FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION IS SIMILAR THOUGH NOT IDENTICAL TO THAT ADVOCATED BY HIGHLY RESPECTED JUSTICE BENJAMIN CURTIS WHO AS YOU KNOW DISSENTED FROM THE NOTORIOUS DECISION IN DRED SCOTT AND WHO AFTER RESIGNING IN PROTEST FROM THE HIGH COURT SERVED AS COUNSEL TO PRESIDENT ANDREW JOHNSON IN THE SENATE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL. HE ARGUED, AND I QUOTE, THERE CAN BE NO CRIME. THERE CAN BE NO MISDEMEANOR WITHOUT A LAW WRITTEN OR UNWRITTEN EX-EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED. IN SO ARGUING HE WAS HE CAN — ECHOING THE CONCLUSION OF THEODOR WHITE WHO WROTE UNLESS A CRIME IS SPECIFICALLY NAMED IN THE CONSTITUTION, TREASON AND BRIBERY, IMPEACHMENTS LIKE INDICTMENTS CAN ONLY BE SUBSTITUTED FOR CRIMES COMMITTED AGAINST THE STATUTORY LAW OF THE UNITED STATES, AS JUDGE STARR SAID EARLIER TODAY.HE DESCRIBED THAT AS THE WEIGHT OF AUTHORITY BEING ON THE SIDE OF THAT PROPOSITION AT A TIME MUCH CLOSER TO THE FRAMING THAN WE ARE TODAY. THE MAIN THRUST OF MY ARGUMENT, HOWEVER, AND THE ONE MOST RELEVANT TO THESE PROCEEDINGS IS THAT EVEN IF THAT POSITION IS NOT ACCEPTED, EVEN IF CRIMINAL CONDUCT WERE NOT REQUIRED, THE FRAMERS OF OUR CONSTITUTION IMPLICITLY REJECTED, AND IF IT HAD BEEN PRESENTED TO THEM WOULD HAVE EXPLICITLY REJECTED SUCH VAGUE TERMS AS ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS AS AMONG THE ENUMERATED AND DEFINED CRITERIA FOR IMPEACHING A PRESIDENT.YOU WILL RECALL THAT AMONG THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT AGAINST PRESIDENT JOHNSON WERE ACCUSATIONS OF NONCRIMINAL BUT OUTRAGEOUS MISBEHAVIOR INCLUDING ONES AKIN TO THE ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS. ARTICLE 10 CHARGED JOHNSON DID ATTEMPT TO BRING INTO DISGRACE, RIDICULE, HATRED, CONTEMPT AND REPROACH THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES. ARTICLE 1 1 CHARGED JOHNSON WITH DENYING THAT CONGRESS WAS AUTHORIZED BY THE CONSTITUTION TO EXERCISE LEGISLATIVE POWER, AND DENYING THAT THE LEGISLATION OF SAID CONGRESS WAS OBLIGATORY UPON HIM. PRETTY SERIOUS CHARGES. HE’S HOW JUSTICE CURTIS RESPONDED TO THESE NONCRIMINAL CHARGES. QUOTE, MY FIRST POSITION IS THAT WHEN CONGRESS SPEAKS OF TREASON, BRIBERY AND OTHER CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS, IT REFERS TO AND INCLUDES ONLY HIGH CRIMINAL OFFENSES AGAINST THE UNITED STATES MADE SO BY SOME LAW OF THE UNITED STATES, EXISTING WHEN THE COMPLAINTS WERE DONE AND I SAY, HE CONTINUED, THAT THIS IS PLAINLY TO BE INFERRED FROM EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THE PROVISIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION ON THE SUBJECT OF IMPEACHMENT.AND I WILL BRIEFLY REVIEW THOSE OTHER PROVISIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION WITH YOU. JUDGE CURTIS’ INTERPRETATION IS SUPPORTED INDEED IN HIS VIEW IT WAS COMPELLED BY THE CONSTITUTIONAL TEXT. TREASON, BRIBERY AND OTHER HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS ARE HIGH CRIMES. OTHER HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS MUST BE AKIN TO TREASON AND BRIBERY. CURTIS CITED THE LATIN PHRASE, REFERRING TO A CLASSIC RULE OF INTERPRETATION THAT WHEN THE MEANING OF A WORD THAT IS PART OF A GROUP OF WORDS IS UNCERTAIN, YOU SHOULD LOOK TO THE OTHER WORDS IN THAT GROUP THAT PROVIDE INTERPRETIVE CONTEXT. THE LATE JUSTICE ANTONIN SCALIA GAVE THE FOLLOWING CURRENT EXAMPLE.IF ONE SPEAKS OF MIKI MANTLE, MICHAEL JORDAN AND OTHER GREAT COMPETITORS THE LAST NOUN DOES NOT REASONABLY REFER TO SAM WALTON OR TO NAPOLEON. APPLYING THAT RULE TO THE GROUPS OF WORDS TREASON, BRIBERY, AND OTHER HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS, THE LAST FIVE WORDS SHOULD BE INTERPRETED TO INCLUDE ONLY SERIOUS CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR AKIN TO TREASON AND BRIBERY. JUSTICE CURTIS THEN REVIEWED THE OTHER PROVISIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION THAT RELATE TO IMPEACHMENT. FIRST, HE STARTED WITH THE PROVISION THAT SAYS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES SHALL HAVE THE POWER TO GRANT REPRIEVES AND PARDONS — LISTEN NOW — FOR OFFENSES AGAINST THE UNITED STATES EXCEPT IN CASES OF IMPEACHMENT.HE COGENTLY ARGUED THAT IF IMPEACHMENT WERE NOT AN OFFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED STATES, WAS NOT BASED ON AN OFFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED STATES, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO NEED FOR ANY CONSTITUTIONAL EXCEPTION. HE THEN WENT ON TO A SECOND PROVISION. THE TRIAL OF ALL CRIMES EXCEPT IN CASES OF IMPEACHMENT SHALL BE BY JURY. THIS DEMONSTRATED ACCORDING TO CURTIS, THAT IMPEACHMENT REQUIRES A CRIME. BUT UNLIKE OTHER CRIMES, IT DOES NOT REQUIRE A JURY TRIAL. YOU ARE THE JUDGE AND THE JURY. HE ALSO POINTED OUT THAT IMPEACHMENT TRIAL BY THE EXPRESSED WORDS OF THE CONSTITUTION, REQUIRES AN ACQUITTAL OR A CONVICTION, JUDGMENTS GENERALLY RENDERED ONLY IN THE TRIAL OF CRIMES. NOW PRESIDENT JOHNSON’S LAWYERS ARGUED IN THE ALTERNATIVE AS ALL LAWYERS DO WHEN THERE ARE QUESTIONS OF FACT AND OF LAW.HE ARGUED THAT JOHNSON DID NOT VIOLATE THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT AS YOU’VE HEARD FROM OTHER LAWYERS TODAY, BUT EVEN IF HE DID, THAT THE ARTICLES DO NOT CHARGE IMPEACHABLE OFFENSES, WHICH IS THE ARGUMENT THAT I AM MAKING BEFORE YOU THIS EVENING. JUSTICE CURTIS’ FIRST POSITION IS THAT THE ARTICLES DID NOT CHARGE AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE. ACCORDING TO HARVARD HISSER AND WHY LAW — HISTORIAN AND LAW PROFESSOR, CURTIS’ ARGUMENTS WERE PERSUASIVE TO SOME SENATORS WHO WERE NO FRIENDS OF PRESIDENT JOHNSON, INCLUDING THE COAUTHORS OF THE 13th AND 14th AMENDMENTS.JUDGE CURTIS GAVE US THE LAW AND WE FOLLOWED IT. SENATOR JAMES W. GRIMES ECHOED CURTIS’ ARGUMENT BY REFUSING TO ACCEPT AN INTERPRETATION OF HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS THAT CHANGES ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF EACH SENATOR’S JUDGMENT ENACTED IN HIS OWN BOSOM AFTER THE ALLEGED COMMISSION OF THE OFFENSE. THOUGH HE DESPERATELY WANTED TO SEE PRESIDENT JOHNSON, WHO HE DESPISED OUT OF OFFICE, HE BELIEVED IMPEACHMENT AND REMOVAL WITHOUT THE VIOLATION OF LAW WOULD BE CONSTRUED INTO APPROVAL OF IMPEACHMENTS AS PART OF THE FUTURE POLITICAL MACHINERY. JUSTICE ACCORDING TO IS’ ARGUMENTS MAY WELL HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE DECISION BY AT LEAST SOME OF THE SEVEN REPUBLICAN DISSIDENTS TO DEFY THEIR PARTY AND VOTE FOR ACQUITTAL WHICH WAS SECURED BY A SINGLE VOTE. TODAY PROFESSOR BOWIE HAS AN ARTICLE IN “THE NEW YORK TIMES” IN WHICH HE REPEATS HIS VIEW, IMPEACHMENT REQUIRES A CRIME.HE NOW ARGUES THIS THE — ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT DO CHARGE CRIMES. IN A CASE DECIDED MORE THAN 200 YEARS AGO NOW, THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT RULED THAT FEDERAL COURTS HAVE NO JURISDICTION TO CREATE COMMON LAW CRIMES. CRIMES ARE ONLY WHAT ARE IN THE STATUTE BOOK. SO PROFESSOR BOWIE IS RIGHT THAT THE CONSTITUTION REQUIRES A CRIME FOR IMPEACHMENT BUT WRONG WHEN HE SAYS THAT COMMON LAW CRIMES CAN BE USED AS A BASIS FOR IMPEACHING EVEN THOUGH THEY DON’T APPEAR IN THE STATUTE BOOKS. I’M NOT HERE ARGUING THAT THE CURRENT DISTINGUISHED MEMBERS OF THE SENATE ARE IN ANY WAY LEGALLY BOUND BY JUSTICE CURTIS’ ARGUMENTS OR THOSE OF DEAN DWIGHT, BUT I AM ARGUING THAT YOU SHOULD GIVE THEM SERIOUS CONSIDERATION, THE CONSIDERATION TO WHICH THEY ARE ENTITLED BY THE EMINENCE OF THEIR AUTHOR AND THE ROLE THEY MAY HAVE PLAYED IN THE OUTCOME OF THE CLOSEST PRECEDENT TO THE CURRENT CASE.NOW I WANT TO BE CLEAR THERE IS A NUANCED DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ARGUMENTS MADE BETWEEN CURTIS AND DWIGHT AND THE ARGUMENT I AM PRESENTING HERE TODAY. CURTIS ARGUED THERE MUST BE A SPECIFIC VIOLATION OF PREEXISTING LAW. HE RECOGNIZED AT THE TIME OF THE CONSTITUTION THERE WERE NO FEDERAL CRIMINAL STATUTES. OF COURSE NOT. WE COULDN’T HAVE STATUTES PRIOR TO THE ESTABLISHMENT OF OUR CONSTITUTION AND OUR NATION. THIS ARGUMENT IS OFFERED TODAY BY PROPONENTS OF THIS IMPEACHMENT ON THE CLAIM THAT FRAMERS COULD NOT HAVE INTENDED TO LIMIT THE CRITERIA OF IMPEACHMENT TO CRIMINAL LIKE BEHAVIOR. JUSTICE CURTIS ADDRESSED THAT ISSUE HEAD ON. HE POINTED OUT CRIMES SUCH AS BRIBERY WOULD BE MADE CRIMINAL BY THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES WHICH THE FRAMERS OF THE CONSTITUTION KNEW WOULD BE PASSED. IN OTHER WORDS, HE ANTICIPATED THAT CONGRESS WOULD SOON ENACT STATUTES PUNISHING AND DEFINING CRIMES SUCH AS BURGLARY, EXTORTION, PERJURY, ET CETERA. HE ANTICIPATED THAT AND BASED HIS ARGUMENT IN PART ON THAT.THE CONSTITUTION ALREADY INCLUDED TREASON AS A CRIME AND THAT WAS DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF AND THEN IT INCLUDED OTHER CRIMES. BUT WHAT JUSTICE CURTIS SAID IS THAT YOU COULD INCLUDE LAWS WRITTEN OR UNWRITTEN OR EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED BY WHICH HE MEANT COMMON LAW WHICH AT THE TIME OF THE CONSTITUTION THERE ABOUT MANY COMMON LAW CRIMES AND THEY WERE ENFORCEABLE, EVEN FEDERALLY UNTIL THE SUPREME COURT MANY YEARS LATER DECIDED THAT CRIME LAW CRIMES WERE NO LONGER PART OF FEDERAL JURISDICTION. THE POSITION I DERIVED FROM THE HISTORY WOULD INCLUDE, AND THIS IS A WORD THAT HAVE UPSET SOME PEOPLE, WOULD INCLUDE CRIMINAL-LIKE CONDUCT AKIN TO TREASON AND BRIBERY. THERE MAY NOT BE CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE OF A TECHNICAL CRIME THAT WOULD THESELY RESULT IN A CRIMINAL CONVICTION. FOR EXAMPLE, IF A PRESIDENT WERE TO RECEIVE OR GIVE A BRIBE OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES AND OUTSIDE OF THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS, HE COULD NOT TECHNICALLY BE PROSECUTED IN THE UNITED STATES FOR SUCH A CRIME, BUT I BELIEVE HE COULD BE IMPEACHED FOR SUCH A CRIME BECAUSE HE COMMITTED THE CRIME OF BRIBERY EVEN THOUGH HE COULDN’T TECHNICALLY BE ACCUSED OF IT IN THE UNITED STATES.THAT’S THE DISTINCTION THAT I THINK WE DRAW. OR IF A PRESIDENT COMMITTED EXTORTION, PERJURY OR OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, HE COULD BE CHARGED WITH THESE CRIMES AS IMPEACH ANNUAL OFFENSES BECAUSE THESE CRIMES, THOUGH NOT SPECIFIED IN THE CONSTITUTION ARE AKIN TO TREASON AND BRIBERY. THIS WOULD BE TRUE EVEN IF SOME OF THE TECHNICAL ELEMENTS, TIME AND PLACE, WERE ABSENT. WHAT CURTIS AND DWIGHT AND I AGREE UPON, AND THIS IS THE KEY POINT IN THIS IMPEACHMENT CASE. PLEAS UNDERSTAND WHAT I — PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM ARGUING, CRIMINALLY — ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS ARE OUTSIDE THE RANGE OF IMPEACHABLE OFFENSES. THAT IS THE KEY ARGUMENT. THIS VIEW WAS SUPPORTED BY TEXT WRITERS AND JUDGES. WELCOME ALDWELL RUSSELL WHOSE TREATEES ON CRIMINAL LAW WAS A BIBLE AMONG CRIMINAL LAW SCHOLARS DEFINED HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS SUCH IMMORAL AND UNLAWFUL ACTS AS ARE NEARLY APPLIED AND EQUAL IN GUILT TO A FELONY AND YET OH,ING TO THE ABSENCE OF SOME — OWING TO THE ABSENCE OF SOME TECHNICAL CIRCUMSTANCES DO NOT FALL WITHIN THE DEFINITION OF A FELONY.SIMILAR VIEWS WERE EXPRESSED BY SOME STATE COURTS, OTHERS DISAGREE. CURTIS’ CONSIDERED VIEWS AND THOSE OF DWIGHT, RUSSELL AND OTHERS BASED ON THE STUDY OF TEXT AND HISTORY ARE NOT BONGERS OR OTHER DEMEANING EPITHETS THROWN AROUND BY PARTISAN SUPPORTERS OF THIS IMPEACHMENT. AS JUDGE STARR POINTED OUT, THEY HAVE THE WEIGHT OF AUTHORITY. THEY WERE ACCEPTED BY THE GENERATION OF FOUNDERS AND THE GENERATIONS THAT FOLLOWED. IF THEY ARE NOT ACCEPTED BY ACADEMICS TODAY, THAT SHOWS A WEAKNESS AMONG THE ACADEMICS, NOT AMONG THE FOUNDERS. THESE WHO DISAGREE WITH CURTIS’ TEXTUAL ANALYSIS ARE OBLIGED TO RESPOND WITH COUNTER INTERPRETATIONS, NOT NAME CALLING.IF JUSTICE CURTIS’ ARTS AND THOSE OF DEAN WHITE ARE REJECTED, I THINK PROPONENTS OF IMPEACHMENT MUST OFFER ALTERNATIVE PRINCIPLES, ALTERNATIVE STANDARDS FOR IMPEACHMENT AND REMOVAL. WE HEARD IN 1970, CONGRESSMAN GERALD FORD, WHO I GREATLY ADMIRED SAID THE FOLLOWING, IN THE CONTEXT OF AN IMPEACHMENT OF A JUSTICE, AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE IS WHATEVER THE MAJORITY OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES CONSIDER IT TO BE IN A GIVEN MOMENT OF HISTORY. YOU ALL KNOW THE QUOTE. CONGRESSWOMAN MAXINE WATERS PUT IT THIS WAY RECENTLY — IMPEACHMENT IS WHATEVER CONGRESS SAYS IT IS. THERE IS NO LAW. BUT THIS LAWLESS VIEW WOULD PLACE CONGRESS ABOVE THE LAW. IT WOULD PLACE CONGRESS ABOVE THE CONSTITUTION. FOR CONGRESS TO IGNORE THE SPECIFIC WORDS OF THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF AND SUBSTITUTE ITS OWN JUDGMENTS WOULD BE FOR CONGRESS TO DO WHAT IT IS ACCUSING THE PRESIDENT OF DOING, AND NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW.NOT THE PRESIDENT AND NOT CONGRESS. THIS IS PRECISELY THE KIND OF VIEW EXPRESSLY REJECTED BY THE FRAMERS WHO FEARED HAVING A PRESIDENT SERVE AT THE PLEASURE OF THE LEGISLATURE, AND IT IS PRECISELY THE VIEW REJECTED BY SENATOR JAMES GRIMES WHEN HE REFUSED TO ACCEPT AN INTERPRETATION OF HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS THAT WOULD CHANGE ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF EACH SENATOR’S JUDGMENT ENACTED IN HIS OWN BOSOM. THE CONSTITUTION REQUIRES, IN THE WORDS OF GOVERNOR MORRIS, THAT THE CRITERIA FOR IMPEACHMENT MUST BE ENUMERATED AND DEFINED. THOSE WHO ADVOCATE IMPEACHMENT TODAY ARE OBLIGED TO DEMONSTRATE HOW THE CRITERIA ACCEPTED BY THE HOUSE IN THIS CASE ARE ENUMERATED AND DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION. THE COMPELLING TEXTUAL ANALYSIS PROVIDED BY JUSTICE CURTIS IS CONFIRMED BY THE DEBATE IN THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, BY THE FEDERALIST PAPERS, BY THE WRITINGS OF WILLIAM BLACKSTONE AND I BELIEVE BY THE WRITINGS OF ALEXANDER HAMILTON WHICH WERE HEAVILY RELIED BY LAWYERS AT THE TIME OF THE CONSTITUTION’S ADOPTION.THERE WERE, AT THE TIME OF THE CONSTITUTION’S ADOPTION, TWO GREAT DEBATES THAT WENT ON, AND IT’S VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THESE TWO GREAT DEBATES. THE FIRST, HARD TO IMAGINE TODAY, BUT THE FIRST WAS SHOULD THERE BE ANY POWER TO IMPEACH A PRESIDENT AT ALL? AND THERE WERE SEVERAL MEMBERS OF THE FOUNDING GENERATION AND OF THE FRAMERS OF THE CONSTITUTION WHO SAID NO, WHO SAID NO. A PRESIDENT SHOULDN’T BE ALLOWED TO BE IMPEACHED. THE SECOND — AND THE SECOND IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT IN OUR CONSIDERATION TODAY — IS IF A PRESIDENT IS TO BE SUBJECT TO IMPEACHMENT, WHAT SHOULD THE CRITERIA BE? THESE ARE VERY DIFFERENT ISSUES, AND THEY ARE OFTEN ERRONEOUSLY CONFLATED.LET’S BEGIN WITH THE FIRST DEBATE. DURING THE BROAD DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER A PRESIDENT SHOULD BE SUBJECT TO IMPEACHMENT, PROPONENTS OF IMPEACHMENT USED VAGUE AND OPEN-ENDED TERMS, SUCH AS UNFIT, OBNOXIOUS, CORRUPT, MISCONDUCT, MISBEHAVIOR, NEGLIGENCE, MALPRACTICE, PERFIDY, TREACHERY, INCAST, PECULATION AND MALL ADMINISTRATION. — AND MALADMINISTRATION. THEY WORRIED THAT A PRESIDENT MIGHT, QUOTE, PERVERT HIS ADMINISTRATION INTO A SCHEME OF SPECULATION AND OPPRESSION. HE MIGHT BE CORRUPTED BY FOREIGN INFLUENCE. AND YES, THIS IS IMPORTANT, THAT HE MIGHT HAVE GREAT OPPORTUNITIES OF ABUSING HIS POWER. THOSE WERE THE CONCERNS THAT LED THE FRAMERS TO DECIDE THAT A PRESIDENT MUST BE SUBJECT TO IMPEACHMENT, BUT NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THE FRAMERS SUGGESTED THAT THESE GENERAL FEARS JUSTIFYING THE NEED FOR AN IMPEACHMENT AND REMOVAL MECHANISM SHOULD AUTOMATICALLY BE ACCEPTED AS A SPECIFIC CRITERION FOR IMPEACHMENT. FAR FROM IT, AS GOVERNOR MORRIS APTLY PUT IT. CORRUPTION AND SOME OTHER OFFENSES OUGHT TO BE IMPEACHABLE. BUT THE CASES OUGHT TO BE ENUMERATED AND DEFINED. THE GREAT FALLACY OF MANY CONTEMPORARY SCHOLARS AND PUNDITS AND WITH DUE RESPECT, MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, IS THAT THEY FAILED TO UNDERSTAND THE CRITICAL DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE BROAD REASONS FOR NEEDING AN IMPEACHMENT MECHANISM AND THE CAREFULLY ENUMERATED AND DEFINED CRITERIA THAT SHOULD AUTHORIZE THE DEPLOYMENT OF THIS POWERFUL WEAPON.LET ME GIVE YOU A HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE THAT MIGHT HAVE — OR CERTAINLY WILL FACE CONGRESS. LET’S ASSUME THAT THERE IS A DEBATE OVER REGULATING THE CONTENT OF SOCIAL MEDIA. WHETHER WE SHOULD HAVE REGULATIONS OR CRIMINAL — CIVIL REGULATIONS OVER TWITTER AND FACEBOOK, ET CETERA. IN THE DEBATE OVER REGULATING THE SOCIAL MEDIA, PROPONENTS OF REGULATION MIGHT WELL CITE BROAD DANGERS, SUCH AS FALSE INFORMATION, INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT, HATE SPEECH. THOSE ARE GOOD REASONS FOR HAVING REGULATION. BUT WHEN IT CAME TO ENUMERATING AND DEFINING WHAT SHOULD BE PROHIBITED, SUCH BROAD DANGERS WOULD HAVE TO BE BALANCED AGAINST OTHER IMPORTANT POLICIES. AND THE RESULTING LEGISLATION WOULD BE MUCH NARROWER AND MORE CAREFULLY DEFINED THAN THE BROAD DANGERS THAT NECESSITATED SOME REGULATION.THE FRAMERS UNDERSTOOD AND ACTED ON THIS DIFFERENCE, BUT I’M AFRAID THAT MANY SCHOLARS AND OTHERS AND MEMBERS OF CONGRESS FAILED TO SEE THIS DISTINCTION, AND THEY CITE SOME OF THE FEARS THAT LED TO THE NEED FOR IMPEACHMENT MECHANISM. THEY CITE THEM AS THE CRITERIA THEMSELVES. THAT IS A DEEP FALLACY. AND IT’S CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT THAT THE DISTINCTION BE SHARPLY DRAWN BETWEEN ARGUMENTS MADE IN FAVOR OF IMPEACHING AND THE CRITERIA THEN DECIDED UPON TO JUSTIFY THE IMPEACHMENT SPECIFICALLY OF A PRESIDENT. THE FRAMERS UNDERSTOOD THIS, AND SO THEY GOT DOWN TO THE DIFFICULT BUSINESS OF ENUMERATING AND DEFINING PRECISELY WHICH OFFENSES, AMONG THE MANY THAT THEY FEARED A PRESIDENT MIGHT COMMIT, SHOULD BE IMPEACHABLE, AS DISTINGUISHED FROM THOSE LEFT TO THE VOTERS TO EVALUATE. SOME FRAMERS SUCH AS ROGER SHERMAN WANTED THE PRESIDENT TO BE REMOVABLE BY THE NATIONAL LEGISLATURE AT ITS PLEASURE, MUCH LIKE THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER CAN BE REMOVED BY A SIMPLE VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE BY PARLIAMENT.THAT VIEW WAS REJECTED. BENJAMIN FRANKLIN OPPOSED DECIDEDLY THE MAKING OF THE EXECUTIVE, QUOTE, THE MERE CREATE OF THE LEGISLATURE. MORRIS WAS AGAINST THE DEPENDENCE OF ON THE LEGISLATUR, CONSIDERING THE LEGISLATURE, YOU WILL PARDON ME, QUOTING THIS, A GREAT DANGER TO BE APPREHENDED. I DON’T AGREE WITH THAT. JAMES MADISON EXPRESSED CONCERNS ABOUT THE PRESIDENT BEING IMPROPERLY DEPENDENT ON THE LEGISLATURE. OTHERS WORRIED ABOUT A FEEBLE EXECUTIVE. HEARING THESE AND OTHER ARGUMENTS IN WHICH THE LEGISLATOR HAD THE POWER TO REMOVE THE PRESIDENT, THE FRAMERS SET OUT TO STRIKE THE APPROPRIATE BALANCE TO VOTE FOR A PROVISION AUTHORIZING THE IMPEACHMENT OF A PRESIDENT AND THE NEED FOR SPECIFIC CRITERIA NOT SUBJECT TO LEGISLATIVE ABUSE OR OVER USE.AMONG THE CRITERIA PROPOSED WERE MALPRACTICE, NEGLECT OF DUTY, MALCONDUCT, NEGLECT IN THE EXECUTION OF OFFICE, AND AND THIS WORD WE’LL COME BACK TO TALK ABOUT, MALADMINISTRATION. IT WAS A RESPONSE TO THAT LAST TERM, A TERM USED IN BRITAIN WILL BE EQUIVALENT TO A TENURE DURING THE PLEASURE OF THE SENATE. UPON HEARING MADISON’S OBJECTIONS, COLONEL MASON WITHDREW MALADMINISTRATION AND SUBSTITUTED OTHER CRIMES HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS. HAD A DELEGATE PROPOSED INCLUSION OF ABUSE OF POWER OR OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS AS CRITERIA FOR IMPEACHMENT, HISTORY STRONGLY SUGGESTS THAT MADISON WOULD HAVE SIMILARLY OPPOSED IT AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OBJECTED. I WILL COME BACK TO THAT ARGUMENT LATER ON WHEN I TALK SPECIFICALLY ABOUT ABUSE OF POWER. INDEED, MAD SORN WORRIED THAT — MADISON WORRIED THAT A PARTISAN LEGISLATOR COULD USE MISDEMEANORS TO INCLUDE A BROAD ARRAY OF NONCRIMES AND MOVED TO MOVE THE TRIAL TO THE NONPARTISAN SUPREME COURT. THE PROPOSAL WAS REJECTED. NOW THIS DOES NOT MEAN, AS SOME HAVE SUGGESTED, THAT MADISON SUDDENLY CHANGED HIS MIND AND FAVORED SUCH MISUSE OF MISDEMEANORS TO INCLUDE BROAD TERMS LIKE MISDEMEANORS, HE FEARED IT COULD BE ABUSED.THE MISUSE OF THE TERM HIGH CRIMES MISDEMEANORS BY THE HOUSE IN THIS CASE. NOW THE BEST EVIDENCE THAT THE BROAD CONCERNS CITED BY THE FRAMERS TO JUSTIFY IMPEACHMENT WERE NOT AUTOMATICALLY ACCEPTED BY CRITERIA IS THE MANNER BY WHICH THE WORD INCAPACITY. FOCUS ON THAT WORD, INCAPACITY WAS TREATED. MADISON AND OTHERS FOCUSED ON THE PROBLEM OF WHAT HAPPENS IF A PRESIDENT BECOMES INCAPACITATED. CERTAINLY A PRESIDENT WHO IS INCAPACITATED SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE TO PRESIDE OVER THIS GREAT COUNTRY. AND EVERYONE SEEMED TO AGREE THAT THE POSSIBILITY OF PRESIDENTIAL INCAPACITY IS A GOOD AND POWERFUL REASON FOR HAVING AN IMPEACHMENT PROVISION. WHEN IT CAME TIME TO ESTABLISH AND CRITERIA FOR ACTUALLY REMOVING A PRESIDENT IN CAPACITY WAS NOT INCLUDED. WHY NOT? PRESUMABLY BECAUSE IT WAS TOO VAGUE AND SUBJECTIVE A TERM. AND WHEN WE HAD AN INCAPACIATED PRESIDENT, IN THE END OF THE WOODROW WILSON SECOND TERM, HE WAS NOT IMPEACHED AND REMOVED, A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT WITH CAREFULLY DRAWN PROCEDURAL SAFEGUARDS AGAINST ABUSE WAS REQUIRED TO REMEDY THE DAUNTING PROBLEM OF A PRESIDENT WHO WAS DEEMED INCAPACITATED.NOW ANOTHER REASON WHY INCAPACITATION WAS NOT INCLUDED AMONG IMPEACHABLE OFFENSES IS BECAUSE IT’S NOT A CRIME. IT’S NOT AKIN TO TREASON OR BRIBERY AND IT’S NOT A HIGH CRIME AND MISDEMEANOR. IT IS BELIEVED IT MUST BE CRIMINAL IN NATURE AND AKIN TO THE SIMILAR CRIMES. INCAPACITY DID NOT FIT INTO THIS CATEGORY. NOTHING CRIMINAL ABOUT IT. THE CONSTITUTION HAD TO BE AMENDED TO INCLUDE A DIFFERENT CATEGORY OF NONCRIMINAL BEHAVIOR THAT WARRANTED REMOVAL. I URGE YOU TO CONSIDER SERIOUSLY THAT IMPORTANT PART OF THE HISTORY OF THE ADOPTION OF OUR CONSTITUTION. I THINK THAT BLACKSTONE AND HAMILTON ALSO SUPPORT THIS VIEW.THERE IS NO DISAGREEMENT OVER THE CONCLUSION THAT THE WORDS TREASON, BRIBERY, OR OTHER HIGH CRIMES, THOSE WORDS REQUIRE CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR. THE DEBATE IS ONLY OVER THE WORDS AND MISDEMEANORS. THE FRAMERS OF THE CONSTITUTION WERE FULLY COGNIZANT OF THE FACT THAT THE WORD MISDEMEANOR WAS WITH A SPECIES OF CRIME. THE BOOK THAT WAS MOST OFTEN DEEMED AUTHORITATIVE WAS WRITTEN BY WILLIAM BLACKSTONE IN GREAT BRYNN. HERE IS WHAT HE SAYS ABOUT — GREAT BRITAIN, HERE IS WHAT HE SAYS.A CRIME OR MISDEMEANOR IS AN ACT COMMITTED OR OMITTED IN VIOLATION OF A PUBLIC LAW EITHER FORBIDDING OR COMMANDING IT. THIS GENERAL DEFINITION COMPREHENDS BOTH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS, WHICH PROPERLY SPEAKING, ARE MERE SYNONYMOUS TERMS. MERE SYNONYMOUS TERMS. HE THEN WENT ON THOUGH IN COMMON USE, THE WORD CRIMES IS MADE TO DENOTE OF THAT THAT IS A DEEPER DYE, WHILE OMISSIONS OF LESS CONSEQUENCE ARE UNDER MISDEMEANORS ONLY.HE POINTED OUT THAT MISDEMEANORS WERE NOT ALWAYS SO GENTLE. THERE WAS A CATEGORY CALLED CAPITAL MISDEMEANORS WHERE IF YOU STOLE SOMEBODY’S PIG OR OTHER FOWL, YOU COULD BE TRIED. THERE WERE MISDEMEANORS THAT WOULD CAPITAL IN NATURE. MOREOVER BLACKSTONE WROTE THAT PAL MEANTRY IMPEACHMENT IS A PROSECUTION OF A READY KNOWN AND — ALREADY KNOWN AND ESTABLISHED LAW PRESENTED TO THE MOST HIGH AND SUPREME COURT OF CRIMINAL JUST DICTION ANALOGOUS TO THIS GREAT COURT. HE OBSERVED THAT A COMMONER COULD BE IMPEACHED FOR HIGH MISDEMEANORS, A PEER MAY BE IMPEACHED FOR ANY CRIME. ANY CRIME. THIS CERTAINLY SUGGESTS THAT BLACKSTONE DEEMED HIGH MISDEMEANORS TO BE A SPECIES OF CRIME. HAMILTON IS A LITTLE LESS CLEAR IN THIS ISSUE AND NOT SURPRISINGLY BECAUSE HE WAS WRITING IN FEDERALIST NUMBER 65, HE WAS WRITING NOT TO DEFINE WHAT THE CRITERIA FOR IMPEACHMENT WERE, HE WAS WRITING IN DEFENSE OF THE CONSTITUTION AS WRITTEN UNLESS TO DEFINE ITS PROVISIONS.BUT HE CERTAINLY CANNOT BE CITED IN FAVOR OF CRITERIA SUCH AS ABUSE OF POWER, OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS, NOR OF IMPEACHMENT VOTED ALONG PARTY LINES. HE WARNED THAT THE GREATEST DANGER — THESE WERE HIS WORDS — THE GREATEST DANGER IS THAT THE DECISION WILL BE REGULATED MORE BY THE COMPARATIVE STRENGTH OF PARTIES THAN BY THE REAL DEMONSTRATIONS OF INNOCENCE OR GUILT. IN ADDITION TO USING THE CRIMINAL TERMS INNOCENCE OR GUILT, HAMILTON ALSO REFERRED TO, QUOTE, PROSECUTION AND SENTENCE. HE CITED THE CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISIONS THAT STATES THAT THE PARTY CONVICTED SHALL NEVERTHELESS BE LIABLE AND SUBJECT TO A CRIMINAL TRIAL AS A REASON FOR NOT HAVING THE PRESIDENT TRIED BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT. HE FEARED A DOUBLE PROSECUTION, A VARIATION OF DOUBLE JEOPARDY, BEFORE THE SAME JUDICIARY. THESE POINTS ALL SOUND IN CRIMINAL TERMS. BUT ADVOCATES OF A BROAD OPEN-ENDED, NONCRIMINAL INTERPRETATION OF HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS INSISTS THAT HAMILTON IS ON THEIR SIDE, AND THEY CITE THE FOLLOWING WORDS REGARDLESS THE COURT OF IMPEACHMENT.AND I THINK I HAVE HEARD THESE WORDS QUOTED MORE THAN ANY OTHER WORDS IN SUPPORT OF A BROAD VIEW OF IMPEACHMENT, AND THEY ARE MISUNDERSTOOD. HERE’S WHAT HE SAID. WHEN DESCRIBING THE COURT OF IMPEACHMENT, HE SAID THE SUBJECTS OF ITS JURISDICTION — THOSE ARE IMPORTANT WORDS — THE SUBJECTS OF ITS JURISDICTION, BY WHICH HE MEANT TREASON, BRIBERY, AND OTHER HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS. THE SUBJECTS OF ITS JURISDICTION ARE THOSE OFFENSES WHICH PROCEED FROM THE MISCONDUCT OF PUBLIC MEN, OR, IN OTHER WORDS, FROM THE ABUSE OR VIOLATION OF SOME PUBLIC TRUST. THEY ARE OF A NATURE WHICH MAY WITH PECULIAR PROPRIETY BE DENOMINATED POLITICAL, AS THEY RELATE CHIEFLY TO INJURIES DONE IMMEDIATELY TO SOCIETY ITSELF. THOSE ARE HAMILTON’S WORDS.THEY’RE OFTEN MISUNDERSTOOD AS SUGGESTING THAT THE CRITERIA AUTHORIZING IMPEACHMENT INCLUDE THE MISCONDUCT OF PUBLIC MANDATE OR THE ABUSE OR VIOLATION OF SOME PUBLIC TRUST. THAT IS A MISREADING. THESE WORDS WERE USED TO CHARACTERIZE THE CONSTITUTIONAL CRITERIA THAT ARE THE SUBJECT OF THE JURISDICTION OF THE COURT OF IMPEACHMENT, NAMELY TREASON, BRIBERY, OR OTHER HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS. THOSE SPECIFIED CRIMES ARE POLITICAL IN NATURE. THEY ARE THE CRIMES THAT INVOLVE THE MISCONDUCT OF PUBLIC MEN AND THE ABUSE OF VIOLATION OF SOME PUBLIC TRUST.HAMILTON WAS NOT EXPANDING THE SPECIFIED CRITERIA TO INCLUDE AS INDEPENDENT GROUNDS FOR IMPEACHMENT MISCONDUCT, ABUSE, OR VIOLATION. IF ANYTHING, HE WAS CONTRACTING THEM TO REQUIRE IN ADDITION TO PROOF OF THE SPECIFIED CRIMES ALSO PROOF THAT THE CRIME MUST BE OF A POLITICAL NATURE. THIS WOULD EXCLUDE PRESIDENT CLINTON’S PRIVATE NONPOLITICAL CRIME. IN FACT, — AND THIS IS INTERESTING — HAMILTON’S VIEW WAS CITED BY CLINTON’S ADVOCATES AS CONTRACTING, NOT EXPANDING, THE MEANING OF HIGH CRIMES. TODAY SOME OF THESE SAME ADVOCATES LOOK AT THE SAME WORDS AND CITE THEM AS EXPANDING ITS MEANING. CLINTON WAS ACCUSED OF A CRIME, PERJURY. AND SO THE ISSUE IN HIS CASE WAS NOT WHETHER THE CONSTITUTION REQUIRED A CRIME FOR IMPEACHMENT. INSTEAD, THE ISSUE WAS WHETHER CLINTON’S ALLEGED CRIME COULD BE CLASSIFIED AS A HIGH CRIME IN LIGHT OF ITS PERSONAL NATURE. DURING THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT, I STATED IN AN INTERVIEW THAT I DID NOT THINK THAT A TECHNICAL CRIME WAS REQUIRED BUT I DID THINK THAT ABUSING TRUST COULD BE CONSIDERED.I SAID THAT. AT THAT TIME I HAD NOT DONE THE EXTENSIVE RESEARCH ON THAT ISSUE BECAUSE IT WAS IRRELEVANT TO THE CLINTON CASE AND I WAS NOT FULLY AWARE OF THE COMPELLING COUNTERARGUMENTS, SO I SIMPLY ACCEPTED THE ACADEMIC CONSENSUS ON AN ISSUE THAT WAS NOT ON THE FRONT BURNER AT THE TIME. BUT BECAUSE THIS IMPEACHMENT DIRECTLY RAISES THE ISSUE OF WHETHER CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR IS REQUIRED, I HAVE GONE BACK AND READ ALL THE RELEVANT HISTORICAL MATERIAL AS NONPARTISAN ACADEMICS SHOULD ALWAYS DO AND HAVE NOW CONCLUDED THAT THE FRAMERS DID INTEND TO LIMIT THE CRITERIA FOR IMPEACHMENT TO CRIMINAL TYPE ACTS AKIN TO TREASON, BRIBERY, AND THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT INTEND TO EXTEND IT TO VAGUE AND OPEN-ENDED AND NONCRIMINAL ACCUSATIONS SUCH AS ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS. I PUBLISHED THIS ACADEMIC CONCLUSION WELL BEFORE I WAS ASKED TO PRESENT THE ARGUMENTS TO THE SENATE IN THIS CASE. MY SWITCH IN ATTITUDE PURELY ACADEMIC, PURELY NONPARTISAN. NOR AM I THE ONLY PARTICIPANT IN THIS PROCEEDING WHO HAS CHANGED HIS MIND.SEVERAL MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, SEVERAL SENATORS EXPRESSED DIFFERENT VIEWS REGARDING THE CRITERIA FOR IMPEACHMENT WHEN THE SUBJECT WAS PRESIDENT CLINTON THAN THEY DO NOW. WHEN THE PRESIDENT WAS CLINTON, MY COLLEAGUE AND FRIEND, PROFESSOR LAURENCE TRIBE, WHO IS ADVISING SPEAKER PELOSI NOW, WROTE THAT A SITTING PRESIDENT COULD NOT BE CHARGED WITH A CRIME. NOW HE’S CHANGED HIS MIND. THAT’S WHAT ACT CAMDENICS — ACADEMICS DO AND SHOULD DO BASED ON NEW INFORMATION. IF THERE ARE REASONABLE DOUBTS ABOUT THE INTENDED MEANING OF HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS, SENATORS MIGHT CONSIDER RESOLVING THESE DOUBTS BY REFERENCE TO A LEGAL CONCEPT KNOWN AS LENITY. LENITY GOES BACK TO HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE THE FOUNDING OF OUR COUNTRY AND WAS A CONCEPT IN GREAT BRITAIN, RELIED UPON BY MANY OF OUR OWN JUSTICES AND JUDGES OVER THE YEARS. IT WAS WELL KNOWN TO THE LEGAL MEMBERS OF THE FOUNDING GENERATION. IT REQUIRED THAT IN CONSTRUING A CRIMINAL STATUTE THAT IS CAPABLE OF MORE THAN ONE REASONABLE INTERPRETATION, THE INTERPRETATION THAT FAVORS THE DEFENDANT SHOULD BE SELECTED UNLESS IT CONFLICTS WITH THE INTENT OF THE STATUTE.IT HAS BEEN APPLIED BY CHIEF JUSTICE MARSHALL, JUSTICE OLIVER WENDELL HOLMES, JUSTICE FRANKFURTER, JUSTICE ANTONIN SCALIA, AND OTHERS. APPLYING THAT RULE TO THE INTERPRETATION OF HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS WOULD REQUIRE THAT THESE WORDS BE CONSTRUED NARROWLY TO REQUIRE CRIMINAL CRIMINAL-LIKE CONDUCT AKIN TO TREASON AND BRIBERY RATHER THAN BROADLY TO ENCOMPASS ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS. IN OTHER WORDS, IF SENATORS ARE IN DOUBT ABOUT THE MEANING OF HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS, THE RULE OF LENITY SHOULD INCLINE THEM TOWARD ACCEPTING A NARROWER RATHER THAN A BROAD INTERPRETATION.A VIEW THAT REJECTS ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS AS WITHIN THE CONSTITUTIONAL CRITERIA. NOW, EVEN IF THE RULE OF LENITY IS NOT TECHNICALLY APPLICABLE TO IMPEACHMENT — THAT’S A QUESTIOE POLICIES UNDERLYING THAT RULE ARE WORTHY AND DESERVING OF CONSIDERATION AS GUIDES TO CONSTITUTIONAL INTERPRETATION. NOW, HERE I AM MAKING, I THINK, A VERY IMPORTANT POINT. EVEN IF THE SENATE WERE TO CONCLUDE THAT A TECHNICAL CRIME IS NOT REQUIRED FOR IMPEACHMENT, THE CRITICAL QUESTION REMAINS — AND IT’S A QUESTION I NOW WANT TO ADDRESS MYSELF TO — DO ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS CONSTITUTE IMPEACHABLE OFFENSES? THE RELEVANT HISTORY ANSWERS THAT QUESTION CLEARLY IN THE NEGATIVE. EACH OF THESE CHARGES SUFFERS FROM THE VICE OF BEING, QUOTE, SO VAGUE A TERM THAT THEY WILL BE EQUIVALENT OF TENURE AT THE PLEASURE OF THE SENATE, TO QUOTE, AGAIN, THE FATHER OF OUR CONSTITUTION. ABUSE OF POWER IS AN ACCUSATION EASILY LEVELED BY POLITICAL OPPONENTS AGAINST CONTROVERSIAL PRESIDENTS. IN OUR LONG HISTORY, MANY PRESIDENTS HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF ABUSING THEIR POWER.I WILL NOW GIVE YOU A LIST OF PRESIDENTS WHO IN OUR HISTORY HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF ABUSING THEIR POWER, WHO WOULD BE SUBJECT TO IMPEACHMENT UNDER THE HOUSE MANAGERS’ VIEW OF THE CONSTITUTION. GEORGE WASHINGTON, REFUSAL TO TURN OVER DOCUMENTS RELATED TO THE JAY TREATY. JOHN ADAMS, SIGNING AND ENFORCING THE ALIENIST SEDITION LAWS. THOMAS JEFFERSON, PURCHASING LOUISIANA WITHOUT CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORIZATION. I WILL GO ON, JOHN QUINCY ADAMS, MARTIN VANBUREN, JOHN TYLER, ABUSE OF THE VETO POWER, JAMES POLK. ABRAHAM LINCOLN ACCUSED POLK OF ABUSING THE POWER OF HIS OFFICE, USURPING THE ROLE OF CONGRESS AND TAKING THE ROLE OF DICTATOR. ABRAHAM LINCOLN WAS ACCUSED OF ABUSING HIS POWER FOR SUSPENDING THE WRIT OF HABEAS CORPUS. PRESIDENT GRANT, GROVER CLEVELAND, THEODORE ROOSEVELT, WOODROW WILSON, FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT, HARRY TRUMAN, JIMMY CARTER, RONALD REAGAN, QUOTE, CONCERNING IRAN CONTRA, PROFESSOR LAUREN TRIBE SAID THE FOLLOWING, QUOTE, THEREIN LIES WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE MOST SERIOUS BREACH OF DUTY BY THE PRESIDENT, A BREACH THAT MAY ENTAIL AN IMPEACHABLE ABUSE OF POWER.GEORGE H.W. BUSH, THE FOLLOWING WAS RELEASED TODAY BY THE CLINTON-GORE CAMPAIGN. IN THE PAST WEEKS AMERICANS HAVE BEGUN TO LEARN THE EXTENT TO WHICH GEORGE BUSH AND HIS ADMINISTRATION HAVE ABUSED THEIR GOVERNMENTAL POWER FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES. THAT’S HOW ABUSE OF POWER SHOULD BE USED AS CAMPAIGN RHETORIC. IT SHOULD BE IN STATEMENTS ISSUED BY ABOUT ONE POLITICAL PARTY AGAINST THE OTHER. THAT’S THE NATURE OF THE TERM, ABUSE OF POWER IS A POLITICAL WEAPON. AND IT SHOULD BE LEVELED AGAINST POLITICAL OPPONENTS. LET THE PUBLIC DECIDE. THAT’S TRUE. OBAMA OBAMA, THE HOUSE COMMITTEE UNDER THE JUDICIARY HELD AN ENTIRE HEARING ENTITLED OBAMA ADMINISTRATION ABUSE OF POWER. BY THE STANDARDS APPLIED TO EARLIER PRESIDENTS, NEARLY ANY CONTROVERSIAL ACT BY A CHIEF EXECUTIVE COULD BE DENOMINATED ABUSE OF POWER. FOR EXAMPLE, PAST PRESIDENTS HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF USING THEIR FOREIGN POLICY, EVEN THEIR WAR POWERS, TO ENHANCE THEIR LECH TRAL PROSPECTS ELECTORAL PROSPECTS.PRESIDENTS OFTEN HAVE MIXED MOTIVES THAT INCLUDE PARTISAN PERSONAL BENEFITS ALONG WITH NATIONAL INTERESTS. PROFESSOR JOSH BLACKMAN PROVIDED THE EXAMPLE. DURING THE HEIGHT OF THE CIVIL WAR PRESIDENT LINCOLN ENCOURAGED GENERAL SHERMAN TO ALLOW COLONELS IN THE FIELD TO ALLOW INDIANA TO VOTE. WHAT WAS THE PRIMARY MOTIVATION? HE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIANA REMAINED IN THE HANDS OF REPUBLICAN LOYALISTS WHO WOULD CONTINUE THE WAR UNTIL VICTORY. LINCOLN’S REQUEST RISKED UNDERCUTTING THE MILITARY EFFORT BY DEPLETING THE RANKS. MOREOVER DURING THIS TIME SOLDIERS FROM THE REMAINING STATES FACED GREATER RISKS THAN DID THE RETURNING HOOSIERS, THE PROFESSOR CONTINUES LINCOLN HAD DUELING MOTIVES. PRIVATELY HE SOUGHT TO SECURE VICTORY FOR HIS PARTY. BUT THE PRESIDENT AS A PRESIDENT AND AS A PARTY LEADER AND COMMANDER IN CHIEF MADE A DECISION WITH LIFE OR DEATH CONSEQUENCES, END QUOTE. PROFESSOR BLACKMAN DREW THE FOLLOWING RELEVANT CONCLUSION FROM THIS AND OTHER HISTORICAL EENCHLTS. EVENTS. POLITICIANS PROMOTE THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF THE GENERAL WELFARE WHILE IN THE BACK OF THEIR MINDS CONSIDERING HOW THESE ACTIONS WILL AFFECT THEIR POPULARITY.OFTEN THE TWO CONCEPTS OVERLAP. WHAT’S GOOD FOR THE COUNTRY IS GOOD FOR THE OFFICIALS REELECTION, ALL POLITICSES, HE SAID — ALL POLITICIANS, HE SAID UNDERSTAND THAT DYNAMIC. LIKE ALL HUMAN BEINGS, PRESIDENTS AND OTHER POLITICIANS PERSUADE THEMSELVES THAT THEIR ACTIONS SEEN BY THEIR OPPONENTS AS SELF-SERVING ARE PRIMARILY IN THE NATIONAL INTEREST. IN ORDER TO CONCLUDE THAT SUCH MIXED MOTIVE ACTIONS CONSTITUTED ABUSE OF POWER, OPPONENTS MUST PSYCHO ANALYZE THE PRESIDENT AND ATTRIBUTE TO HIM A SINGLE LAR SELF-SERVING MOTIVE. SUCH A SUBJECTIVE PROBING OF MOTIVES CANNOT BE THE LEGAL BASIS FOR A SERIOUS ACCUSATION OF ABUSE OF POWER THAT COULD RESULT IN THE REMOVAL OF AN ELECTED PRESIDENT. YET, THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT THE MANAGERS ARE CLAIMING. HERE’S WHAT THEY SAY, QUOTE, WHETHER THE PRESIDENT’S REAL REASON, THE ONES ACTUALLY IN HIS MIND ARE AT THE TIME LEGITIMATE.WHAT A STANDARD. WHAT WAS IN THE PRESIDENT’S MIND ACTUALLY IN HIS MIND. WHAT WAS THE REAL REASON? WOULD YOU WANT YOUR ACTIONS TO BE PROBED FOR WHAT WAS THE REAL REASON, WHY YOU ACTED? EVEN IF A PRESIDENT WERE — AND IT CLEARLY SHOWS IN MY MIND THAT THE FRAMERS COULD NOT HAVE INTENDED THIS PSYCHO ANALYTIC TO MOTIVES TO DETERMINE WHAT IS IMPEACHABLE AND WHAT IS NOT.HERE I COME TO A RELEVANT AND CONTEMPORANEOUS ISSUE. EVEN IF A PRESIDENT, ANY PRESIDENT, WERE TO DEMAND A QUID PRO QUO AS A CONDITION TO SENDING AID TO A FOREIGN COUNTRY DISPUTED MATTER IN THIS CASE — THAT WOULD NOT BY ITSELF CONSTITUTE AN ABUSE OF POWER. CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING HYPOTHETICAL CASE THAT IS IN OUR NEWS TODAY AS THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER COMES TO THE UNITED STATES FOR MEETINGS. LET’S ASSUME A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT TELLS ISRAEL THAT FOREIGN AID AUTHORIZED BY CONGRESS WILL NOT BE SENT OR AN OVAL OFFICE MEETING WILL NOT BE SCHEDULED UNLESS THE ISRAELIS STOP BUILDING. QUID PRO QUO. I MIGHT DISAPPROVE OF SUCH A QUID PRO QUO DEMAND ON POLICY GROUNDS, BUT IT WOULD NOT CONSTITUTE AN ABUSE OF POWER. QUID PRO QUO ALONE IS NOT A BASIS FOR ABUSE OF POWER. IT’S PART OF THE WAY FOREIGN POLICY HAS BEEN OPERATED BY PRESIDENTS SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME. THE CLAIM THAT FOREIGN POLICY DECISIONS CAN BE DEEMED ABUSE OF POWER BASED ON DECISIONS ABOUT MIXED OR SOLE MOTIVES THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS INTERESTED ONLY IN HELP HYMNS DEMONSTRATE THE — HIMSELF DEMONSTRATE THE DANGERS OF EMPLOYING THE VAGUE SELECTIVE AND POLITICALLY MALEABLE PHRASE ABUSE OF POWER CRITERIA FOR REMOVAL OF A PRESIDENT.IT FOLLOWS, IT FOLLOWS FROM THIS THAT IF A PRESIDENT, ANY PRESIDENT WERE TO HAVE DONE WHAT THE TIMES REPORTED ABOUT THE CONTEXT OF THE BOLTON MANUSCRIPT THAT WOULD NOT CONSTITUTE AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE. LET ME REPEAT, NOTHING IN THE BOLTON REVELATIONS EVEN IF TRUE WOULD RISE TO THE LEVEL OF AN ABUSE OF POWER OR AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE. THAT IS CLEAR FROM THE HISTORY, THAT IS CLEAR FROM THE LANGUAGE OF THE CONSTITUTION. YOU CANNOT TURN CONDUCT THAT IS NOT IMPEACHABLE INTO IMPEACHABLE CONDUCT SIMPLY BY USING WORDS LIKE QUID PRO QUO AND PERSONAL BENEFIT. IT IS INCONCEIVABLE THAT THE FRAMERS WOULD HAVE INTENDED SO POLITICALLY LOADED AND PROMISCUOUSLY TERMS AS ABUSE OF POWER TO BE WEAPONIZED AS A TOOL OF IMPEACHMENT. IT IS THE KIND OF VAGUE OPEN-ENDED AND SUBJECTIVE TERM THAT THE FRAMERS FEARED AND REJECTED.CONSIDER THE TERM MALADMINISTRATION. I WANT TO GET BACK TO THAT TERM BECAUSE IT’S THE TERM THAT WAS EXPLICITLY REJECTED BY THE FRAMERS. YOU WILL RECALL IT WAS RAISED AND THEN MADISON OBJECTED TO IT. IT WAS THEN WITHDRAWN AND IT IS NOT PART OF THE CRITERIA. WE ALL AGREE THAT MALADMINISTRATION IS NOT A GROUND FOR IMPEACHMENT. IF THE HOUSE WERE TO IMPEACH ON MALADMINISTRATION, IT WOULD BE PLACING ITSELF ABOVE THE LAW. THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THE FRAMERS EXPLICITLY REJECTED MALADMINISTRATION. WHAT IS MALADMINISTRATION? IT’S COMPARABLE IN MANY WAYS TO THE ABUSE OF POWER. MALADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN DEFINED TO INCLUDE ABUSE, CORRUPTION, MISRULE, DISHONESTY, MISUSE OF OFFICE AND MISBEHAVIOR. PROFESSOR BOWIE IN HIS ARTICLE IN TODAY’S “NEW YORK TIMES” EQUATES ABUSE OF POWER WITH, QUOTE, MISCONDUCT IN OFFICE.MISCONDUCT IN OFFICE, THUS SUPPORTING THE VIEW THAT WHEN THE FRAMERS REJECTED MALADMINISTRATION, THEY ALSO REJECTED ABUSE OF POWER AS A CRITERIA FOR IMPEACHMENT. BLACKSTONE DENOMINATED MALADMINISTRATION AS A HIGH MISDEMEANOR, PUNISHABLE WHEREAS SUCH PENALTY SHORT OF DEATH ARE INL BEING THE FLICTED. YOU CAN BE IN PRISON FOR MALADMINISTRATION. DESPITE THIS BRITISH HISTORY, MADISON INSISTED THAT IT BE REJECTED AS A CONSTITUTIONAL CRITERIA FOR IMPEACHMENT BECAUSE, AND I QUOTE AGAIN SO VAGUE A TERM WILL BE EQUIVALENT TO TENURE DURING THE PLEASURE OF THE SENATE. AND IT WAS EXPLICITLY REJECTED AND WITHDRAWN BY ITS SPONSOR. THIS IMPORTANT EPISODE IN OUR CONSTITUTIONAL HISTORY SUPPORTS THE CONCLUSION THAT THE FRAMERS DID NOT ACCEPT WHOLE HOG THE BRITISH APPROACH TO IMPEACHMENT AS SOME HAVE MISTAKENLY ARGUED, SPECIFICALLY, THEY REJECTED VAGUE AND OPEN-ENDED CRITERIA EVEN THOSE CARRYING PUNISHMENT OF IMPRISONMENT IN BRITAIN BECAUSE THEY DID NOT WANT TO TURN OUR NEW REPUBLIC INTO A PARLIAMENTY STYLE DEMOCRACY IN WHICH THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE CAN BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE SIMPLY BY A VOTE OF NONCONFIDENCE.THAT’S WHAT THEY DIDN’T WANT. SURE NOBODY WAS ABOVE THE LAW, BUT THEY CREATED A LAW. THEY CREATED A LAW BY WHICH CONGRESS COULD IMPEACH AND THEY DID NOT WANT TO EXPAND THAT LAW TO INCLUDE ALL THE CRITERIA THAT PERMITTED IMPEACHMENT IN GREAT BRITAIN. THE FRAMERS WOULD NEVER HAVE INCLUDED AND DID NOT INCLUDE ABUSE OF POWER AS AN ENUMERATED AND DEFINED CRITERIA FOR IMPEACHMENT. BY EXPRESSLY REJECTING MALADMINISTRATION THEY REJECTED ABUSE. HE NO OTHER FRAMERS INCLUDED OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS AS AMONG THE CRITERIA. IT TOO VAGUE, INDEFINABLE ESPECIALLY IN A CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM IN WHICH ACCORDING TO TO HAMILTON IN FEDERALIST 78 THE LEGISLATIVE BODY IS NOT THEMSELVES THE CONSTITUTIONAL JUDGE OF THEIR OWN POWERS AND THE INSTRUCTION THEY PUT ON THEM IS NOT CONCLUSIVE UPON OTHER DEPARTMENTS.INSTEAD HE SAID THE COURTS WERE DESIGNED AS AN INTERMEDIATE BODY BETWEEN THE PEOPLE AS DECLARED IN THE CONSTITUTION AND THE LEGISLATURE IN ORDER TO KEEP THE LADDER WITHIN THE LIMITS ASSIGNED TO OUR AUTHORITY. UNDER OUR SYSTEM OF SEPARATION OF POWERS AND CHECKS AND BALANCES THERE CANNOT BE AN OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, AND SOME OTHER LAWYERS HAVE MADE THIS ARGUMENT TODAY MORE THOROUGHLY, FOR A PRESIDENT TO DEMAND JUDICIAL REVIEW OF LEGISLATIVE SUBPOENAS BEFORE THEY ARE COMPLIED WITH. THE LEGISLATURE IS NOT THE CONSTITUTIONAL JUDGE OF ITS OWN POWERS, INCLUDING THE POWER TO ISSUE SUBPOENAS. THE COURTS WERE DESIGNATED TO RESOLVE DISPUTES BETWEEN THE EXECUTIVE AND LEGISLATIVE BRANCHES AND IT CANNOT BE AN OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS TO INVOKE THE CONSTITUTIONAL POWER OF THE COURTS TO DO SO.BY THEIR VERY NATURE, WORDS LIKE ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS ARE STANDARDLESS. IT’S IMPOSSIBLE TO PUT STANDARDS INTO WORDS LIKE THAT. BOTH ARE SUBJECTIVE MATTERS OF DEGREE AND AMENABLE TO VARYING PARTISAN INTERPRETATIONS. IT’S IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW IN ADVANCE WHETHER A GIVEN ACTION WILL SUBSEQUENTLY BE DEEMED TO BE ON ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER OF THE LINE. INDEED THE SAME ACTION WITH THE SAME STATE OF MIND CAN BE DEEMED ABUSIVE OR OBSTRUCTIVE WHEN DONE BY ONE PERSON BUT NOT WHEN DONE BY ANOTHER. THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF WHAT THE RULE OF LAW IS NOT. WHEN YOU HAVE A CRY TEAR THAT COULD BE APPLIED TO ONE PERSON IN ONE WAY AND ANOTHER PERSON IN ANOTHER WAY, AND THEY BOTH FIT WITHIN THE TERMS ABUSE OF POWER. A FEW EXAMPLES WILL ILLUSTRATE THE DANGERS OF STANDARDLESS IMPEACHMENT CRITERIA. PROFESSOR NOAH FELDMAN ARGUED A TWEET CONTAINING WHAT HE BELIEVED WAS FALSE INFORMATION COULD, QUOTE, GET THE CURRENT PRESIDENT IMPEACHED IF IT IS PART OF A BROADER COURSE OF CONDUCT.A TWEET. PROFESSOR ALLEN LICKMAN ARGUED THAT THE PRESIDENT COULD BE IMPEACHED BASED ON HIS CLIMATE CHANGE POLICY WHICH HE REGARDS IS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY. I HAVE TO TELL YOU I DISAGREE WITH OUR PRESIDENT’S CLIEX POLICY AS I — CLIMATE CHANGE POLICY AS I DO WITH MANY OF HIS OTHER POLICIES. BUT THAT’S NOT A CRITERIA FOR IMPEACHMENT. THAT IS A CRITERIA OF DECIDING WHO YOU’RE GOING TO VOTE FOR. IF YOU DON’T LIKE A PRESIDENT’S POLICIES ON CLIMATE CHANGE, VOTE FOR THE OTHER CANDIDATE. FIND A CANDIDATE WHO HAS BETTER POLICIES ON CLIMATE CHANGE. IF YOU DON’T LIKE THE PRESIDENT’S TWEETS, FIND SOMEBODY WHO DOESN’T TWEET.THAT WILL BE EASY. BUT DON’T ALLOW YOUR SUBJECTIVE JUDGMENTS TO DETERMINE WHAT IS AND IS NOT AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE. PROFESSOR TRIBE, AS I MENTIONED ARGUED UNDER THE CRITERIA OF ABUSE OF POWER, PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN SHOULD HAVE BEEN IMPEACHED. WOULD ANY AMERICAN TODAY ACCEPT THE LEGAL SYSTEM IN WHICH PROSECUTORS COULD CHARGE A CITIZEN WITH ABUSIVE CONDUCT? COULD YOU IMAGINE A CRIME, ABUSIVE CONDUCT? FORTUNATELY WE HAVE CONSTITUTIONAL PROTECTIONS AGAINST A STATUTE THAT, QUOTE, EITHER FORBIDS OR REQUIRES THE DOING OF AN ACT AND TERM SO VAGUE THAT MEN AND WOMEN OF COMMON INTELLIGENCE MUST NECESSARILY GUESS AT ITS MEANING AND DIFFER AS TO ITS APPLICATION. VERY DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE CRITERIA THAT FIT THIS DESCRIPTION OF WHAT THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID VIOLATES THE FIRST ESSENTIALS OF DUE PROCESS MORE CLOSELY THAN ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS. ANOTHER CONSTITUTIONAL RULE OF CONSTRUCTION IS THAT WHEN WORDS CAN BE INTERPRETED IN AN UNCONSTITUTIONALLY VAGUE MANNER OR IN A CONSTITUTIONALLY PRECISE MANNER, THE LATTER MUST BE CHOSEN.YOU ARE ENTITLED TO USE THAT RULE OF INTERPRETATION AS WELL IN DECIDING WHETHER OR NOT OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS OR ABUSE OF POWER CAN BE DEFINED AS FITTING WITHIN THE CRITERIA OF HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS. FOR THE SENATE TO REMOVE A DULY ELECTED PRESIDENT ON VAGUE, NONCONSTITUTIONAL GROUNDS SUCH AS ABUSE OF POWER OR OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS WOULD CREATE A DANGEROUS PRECEDENT AND BE CONSTRUED IN THE WORDS OF SENATOR JAMES INGRIMES INTO APPROVAL OF IMPEACHMENT AS PART OF FUTURE POLITICAL MACHINERY. THIS IS A REALISTIC THREAT TO ALL FUTURE PRESIDENTS WHO SERVE WITH OPPOSING LEGISLATIVE MAJORITIES THAT COULD EASILY CONCOCT VAGUE CHARGES OF ABUSE OR OBSTRUCTION. THE THE FACT THAT A LONG LIST OF PRESIDENTS THAT WERE ACCUSED OF ABUSE OF POWER WERE NOT IMPEACHED DEMONSTRATES HOW THIS CAN BE USED IN THE CONTEXT OF IMPEACHMENT.I’M SORRY, HOUSE MANAGERS, YOU JUST PICKED THE WRONG CRITERIA. YOU PICKED THE MOST DANGEROUS POSSIBLE CRITERIA TO SERVE AS A PRECEDENT FOR HOW WE SUPERVISE AND OVERSEE FUTURE PRESIDENTS. THE IDEA OF ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS ARE SO FAR FROM WHAT THE FRAMERS ARE — HAD IN MIND THAT THEY SO CLEARLY VIOLATE THE CONSTITUTION AND WOULD PLACE CONGRESS ABOVE THE LAW. NOW, NOR ARE THESE VAGUE, OPEN-ENDED CONSTITUTIONAL ARGUMENTS OF IMPEACHMENT THAT ARE CHARGED HERE, THEY ARE NOT SAVED BY THE INCLUSION OF THESE ARTICLES BY SOMEWHAT MORE SPECIFIC BUT STILL NONCRIMINAL TYPE CONDUCT.THE SPECIFICATIONS ARE OPEN-ENDED. THEY INCLUDE ACCUSATIONS AS COMPROMISING NATIONAL SECURITY, ABUSING THE POWER OF THE PRESIDENCY, VIOLATING HIS OATH OF OFFICE, IN ANY EVENT, IT’S THE ACTUAL ARTICLES THAT CHARGE ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE NEITHER OF WHICH ARE IN THE CONSTITUTION. IT’S THE ACTUAL ARTICLES ON WHICH YOU MUST ALL VOTE. NOT ON THE MORE SPECIFIC LIST OF MEANS INCLUDED IN THE TEXT OF THE ARTICLES. AN ANALOGY OF A CRIMINAL INDICTMENT MIGHT BE HELPFUL IF A DEFENDANT WERE ACCUSED OF DISHONESTY, IT WOULDN’T MATTER THAT THE INDICTMENT LISTED AS WELL THE MEANS TOWARD DISHONESTY FAR MORE SPECIFIC POTENTIAL EE OFFENSES. IT’S NOT IN THE STATUTES. IT’S NOT A CRIME. THE INDICTMENT WOULD BE DISMISSED BECAUSE DISHONESTY IS A SIN AND NOT A CRIME. EVEN IF THE INDICTMENT INCLUDED A LONG LIST OF MORE SPECIFIC ACTS OF DISHONESTY, NOR CAN IMPEACHMENT WITH — BE BASED ON A BUNCHING TOGETHER OF NONIMPEACHABLE SINCE NONE OF WHICH STANDING ALONE REACH THE CONSTITUTIONAL CRITERIA.ONLY IF IT REACHES ONE CONSTITUTIONALLY AUTHORIZED OFFENSES PROVED, CAN THE CONGRESS DECIDE WHETHER REMOVAL IS WARRANTED. IN OTHER WORDS, YOUR JURISDICTION IS BASED ON COMMISSION OF AN IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE. ONCE THAT JURISDICTIONAL ELEMENT IS SATISFIED, YOU HAVE BROAD DISCRETION TO DETERMINE WHETHER REMOVAL IS WARRANTED AND YOU CONSIDER A WIDE ARRAY OF CONDUCT CRIMINAL AND NONCRIMINAL. BUT YOU HAVE NO JURISDICTION TO REMOVE UNLESS THERE IS AT LEAST ONE IMPEACHABLE OFFENSE WITHIN THE MEANING OF HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS. IN THE THREE DAYS OF ARGUMENT THE HOUSE MANAGERS TOSSED AROUND WORDS EVEN VAGUER THAN ABUSE AND OBSTRUCTION TO JUSTIFY THEIR CASE FOR REMOVAL. IT INCLUDED TRUST, TRUTH, HONESTY, AND, FINALLY, RIGHT. THESE ASPIRATIONAL WORDS OF VIRTUE ARE REALLY IMPORTANT BUT THEY DEMONSTRATE THE FAILURE OF THE MANAGERS TO DISTINGUISH ALLEGED POLITICAL SINS FROM CONSTITUTIONALLY IMPEACHABLE OFFENSES. WE ALL WANT OUR PRESIDENTS AND OTHER PUBLIC OFFICIALS TO LIVE UP TO THE HIGHEST STANDARDS SET BY WASHINGTON AND LINCOLN, THOUGH BOTH OF THEM WERE RECUSED OF ABUSE OF POWER BY THEIR POLITICAL OPPONENTS.THE FRAMERS COULD HAVE DEMANDED THAT ALL PRESIDENTS MUST MEET CONGRESSMAN SCHIFF’S STANDARDS OF BEING HONEST, TRUSTWORTHY, VIRTUOUS, AND RIGHT IN ORDER TO COMPLETE THEIR TERMS, BUT THEY DIDN’T BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND HUMAN FALLIBILITY, AS MADISON PUT IT. IF MEN WERE ANGELS, NO GOVERNMENT WOULD BE NECESSARY AND THEN SPEAKING OF PRESIDENTS AND OTHER PUBLIC OFFICIALS, IF ANGELS WERE TO GOVERN MEN, NEITHER INTERNAL NOR EXTERNAL CONTROLS OF GOVERNMENT WOULD BE NECESSARY. THE FRAMERS UNDERSTOOD IF THEY SET THE CRITERIA FOR IMPEACHMENT TOO FEW WOULD BE SERVING THEIR TERMS.IT WOULD BE AS THE — THEY SET THE STANDARDS HIGH, REQUIRING NOT SINFUL BEHAVIOR, NOT DISHONESTY, TRUST OR DISHONOR, BUT TREASON, BRIBERY, OR OTHER HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS. I END THIS PRESENTATION TODAY WITH A NONPARTISAN PLEA FOR FAIR CONSIDERATION OF MY ARGUMENTS AND THOSE MADE BY COUNSEL AND MANAGERS ON BOTH SIDES. I WILLINGLY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE ACADEMIC CONSENSUS IS THAT CRIMINAL CONDUCT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR IMPEACHMENT AND THAT ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS ARE SUFFICIENT. I HAVE READ AND RESPECTFULLY CONSIDERED THE ACADEMIC WORK OF MY MANY COLLEAGUES WHO DISAGREE WITH MY VIEW AND THE FEW WHO ACCEPT IT. I DO MY OWN RESEARCH AND I DO MY OWN THINKING, AND I HAVE NEVER BOWED TO THE MAJORITY ON INTELLECTUAL OR SCHOLARLY MATTERS. WHAT CONCERNS ME IS DURING THE IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDING THERE HAVE BEEN FEW ATTEMPTS TO RESPOND TO MY ARGUMENTS AND OTHER PEOPLE’S ARGUMENTS OPPOSED TO THE IMPEACHMENT OF THIS PRESIDENT.INSTEAD, OF ANSWERING MY ARGUMENTS AND THOSE OF JUSTICE CURTIS AND PROFESSOR BOWY AND OTHERS, ON THEIR MERITS AND POSSIBLE DEMERITS THEY HAVE BEEN REJECTED WITH NEGATIVE EPITHETS. I ENCOURAGE SENATORS TO IGNORE THE EPITHETS AND LOOK AT THE — VAGUENESS OF ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS. I NOW OFFER A CRITERIA FOR EVALUATING CONFLICTING ARGUMENTS. THE CRITERIA THAT I OFFER I LONG CALLED THE SHOW ON THE OTHER FOOT TEST. IT IS A VARIATION OF THE TEST PROPOSED BY THE GREAT LEGAL AND POLITICAL THINKER AND MY FORMER COLLEAGUE, JOHN RAWLES. IT IS SIMPLE IN ITS STATEMENT BUT DIFFICULT IN APPLICATION. I RESPECTFULLY EACH OF YOU TO IMAGINE THAT THE PERSON BE BEING IMPEACHED WERE OF THE OPPOSITE PARTY OF THE CURRENT PRESIDENT BUT THAT IN ANY OTHER RESPECT THE FACTS WERE THE SAME.I HAVE APPLIED THIS TEST TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL ARGUMENTS I AM OFFERING TODAY. I WOULD BE MAKING THE SAME CONSTITUTIONAL ARGUMENTS IN OPPOSITION TO THE IMPEACHMENT ON THESE TWO GROUNDS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER I VOTED FOR OR AGAINST THE PRESIDENT AND REGARDLESS OF WHETHER I AGREED OR DISAGREED WITH HIS OR HER POLICIES. THOSE OF YOU WHO KNOW ME KNOW THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH. I AM NONPARTISAN IN MY APPLICATION OF THE CONSTITUTION. CAN THE SAME BE SAID OF ALL OF MY COLLEAGUES WHO SUPPORT THIS IMPEACHMENT ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO OPPOSED IMPEACHMENT OF PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON. I EVALUATED THE SUPREME COURT DECISION IN BUSH VERSUS GORE AND HOW THEY WOULD HAVE VOTED IF IT WERE BUSH RATHER THAN GORE SEEKING A RECOUNT. I WAS ON THE O IT — OTHER SIDE OF THAT ISSUE. I THOUGHT THE SUPREME COURT IN THAT CASE FAVORED THE REPUBLICANS OVER THE DEMOCRATS, AND I ASKED THEM TO APPLY THE SHOE ON THE OTHER FOOT TEST.I NOW RESPECTFULLY ASK THIS DISTINGUISHED CHAMBER TO CONSIDER THAT TEST IN EVALUATING THE ARGUMENTS THAT OCCURRED IN THIS HISTORIC CHAMBER. IT IS AN IMPORTANT TEST BECAUSE HOW YOU VOTE ON THIS CASE WILL SERVE AS A PRECEDENT TO HOW OTHER SENATORS OF DIFFERENT PARTIES, DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, AND DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES VOTE IN FUTURE CASES. ALLOWING A DULY ELECTED PRESIDENT TO BE REMOVED ON THE BASIS OF THE STANDARDLESS, SUBJECTIVE, EVER-CHANGING CRITERIA, ABUSE OF POWER AND OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS RISKS BEING CONSTRUED IN THE WORDS OF SENATOR GRIMES A REPUBLICAN SENATOR FROM IOWA WHO VOTED AGAINST IMPEACHING PRESIDENT ANDREW JOHNSON INTO APPROVAL OF IMPEACHMENTS AS PART OF FUTURE POLITICAL MACHINERY.AS I BEGIN, I WILL CLOSE. I AM HERE TODAY BECAUSE I LOVE MY COUNTRY. I LOVE THE COUNTRY THAT WELCOMED MY GRANDPARENTS AND MADE THEM INTO GREAT PATRIOTS AND SUPPORTERS OF THE FREEST AND MOST WONDERFUL COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD. I LOVE OUR CONSTITUTION, THE GREATEST AND MOST ENDURING DOCUMENT IN THE HISTORY OF HUMANKIND. I RESPECTFULLY URGE YOU NOT TO LET YOUR FEELINGS ABOUT ONE MAN, STRONG AS THEY MAY BE, TO ESTABLISH A PRECEDENT THAT WOULD UNDO THE WORK OF OUR FOUNDERS, INJURE THE CONSTITUTIONAL FUTURE OF OUR CHILDREN, AND CAUSE IRREPARABLE DAMAGE TO THE DELICATE BALANCE OF OUR SYSTEM OF SEPARATION OF POWERS AND CHECKS AND BALANCES. AS JUSTICE CURTIS SAID DURING THE TRIAL OF ANDREW JOHNSON, A GREATER PRINCIPLE IS AT STAKE THAN THE FATE OF ANY PARTICULAR PRESIDENT. THE FATE OF FUTURE PRESIDENTS, OF DIFFERENT PARTIES AND POLICIES IS ALSO AT STAKE AS IS THE FATE OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM.THE PASSIONS AND FEARS OF THE MOMENT MUST NOT BLIND US TO OUR PAST AND TO OUR FUTURE. HAMILTON PREDICTED THAT IMPEACHMENT WOULD AGITATE THE PASSIONS OF THE WHOLE COMMUNITY AND ENLIST ALL OF THEIR ANIMOSITIES, PARTIALITIES, INFLUENCE, AND INTEREST ON ONE OR THE OTHER. THE SENATE, THE SENATE WAS ESTABLISHED AS A WISE AND MATURE CHECK ON THE PASSIONS OF THE MOMENT WITH, QUOTE, A DEEP RESPONSIBILITY TO FUTURE TIMES. I RESPECTFULLY URGE THE DISTINGUISHED MEMBERS OF THIS GREAT BODY TO THINK BEYOND THE EMOTIONS OF THE DAY AND TO VOTE AGAINST IMPEACHING ON THE UNCONSTITUTIONAL ARTICLES NOW BEFORE YOU. TO REMOVE A DULY ELECTED PRESIDENT AND TO PREVENT THE VOTERS FROM DECIDING HIS FATE ON THE BASIS OF THESE ARTICLES WOULD NEITHER DO JUSTICE TO THIS PRESIDENT NOR TO OUR ENDURING CONSTITUTION. THERE IS NO CONFLICT HERE. IMPEACHING WOULD DENY BOTH JUSTICE TO AN INDIVIDUAL AND JUSTICE TO OUR CONSTITUTION.I THANK YOU FOR YOUR CLOSE ATTENTION. IT HAS BEEN A GREAT HONOR FOR ME TO ADDRESS THIS DISTINGUISHED MATTER, THIS BODY ON THIS IMPORTANT MATTER. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR ATTENTION. THE PRESIDING OFFICER: THE MAJORITY LEADER IS RECOGNIZED. I’M SORRY. ARE YOU COMPLETE? MR. CIPOLLONE. MR. CIPOLLONE: THANK YOU, MR. CHIEF JUSTICE. MAJORITY LEADER McCONNELL, DEMOCRATIC LEADER SCHUMER, SENATORS. DON’T WORRY. THIS WON’T TAKE VERY LONG. WE’RE GOING TO STOP FOR THE DAY, AND WE’LL CONTINUE WITH OUR PRESENTATIONS TOMORROW. BUT I JUST HAD THREE OBSERVATIONS THAT I WANTED TO BRIEFLY MAKE FOR YOU. FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, PROFESSOR DERSHOWITZ, AND ALL THE PRESENTERS FROM OUR SIDE TODAY. I WAS SITTING HERE LISTENING TO PROFESSOR DERSHOWITZ, AND BELIEVE IT OR NOT, MY MIND WENT BACK TO LAW SCHOOL. AND I BEGAN THINKING HOW WOULD THIS IMPEACHMENT LOOK AS A LAW SCHOOL HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION ON AN EXAM? HOW WOULD WE ANSWER THAT QUESTION? AND I FOUND MYSELF THINKING MAYBE THAT’S A GOOD WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT.THE QUESTION WOULD GO SOMETHING LIKE THIS — IMANE YOU ARE A UNITED STATES SENATOR AND YOU ARE SITTING IN AN IMPEACHMENT TRIAL. THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT BEFORE YOU HAVE BEEN PASSED ON A PURELY PARTISAN BASIS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY. IN FACT, THERE WAS BIPARTISAN OPPOSITION TO THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT. THEY HAVE BEEN TRYING TO IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT FROM THE MOMENT OF HIS INAUGURATION FOR NO REASON, JUST BECAUSE HE WON. THE ARTICLES BEFORE YOU DO NOT ALLEGE A CRIME OR ANY — OR EVEN ANY VIOLATION OF THE CIVIL LAW.ONE ARTICLE ALLEGES OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS SIMPLY FOR EXERCISING LONG-STANDING CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS THAT EVERY PRESIDENT HAS EXERCISED. THE PRESIDENT WAS GIVEN NO RIGHTS IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE CONDUCTED ONLY TWO DAYS OF HEARINGS. YOU ARE SITTING THROUGH YOUR SIXTH DAY OF TRIAL. THE HOUSE IS DEMANDING WITNESSES FROM YOU THAT THEY REFUSED TO SEEK THEMSELVES. WHEN CONFRONTED WITH EXPEDITED COURT PROCEEDINGS REGARDING SUBPOENAS THEY HAD ISSUED, THEY ACTUALLY WITHDREW THOSE SUBPOENAS. THEY ARE NOW CRITICIZING YOU IN STRONG, ACCUSATORY LANGUAGE IF YOU DON’T CAPITULATE TO THEIR UNREASONABLE DEMANDS AND SIT IN YOUR SEATS FOR MONTHS. AN ELECTION IS ONLY MONTHS AWAY, AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, THEY ARE ASKING YOU TO REMOVE A PRESIDENT FROM THE BALLOT. THEY ARE ASKING YOU TO DO SOMETHING THAT VIOLATES ALL PAST HISTORICAL PRECEDENTS THAT YOU HAVE STUDIED IN THIS CLASS, AND PRINCIPLES OF DEMOCRACY, AND TAKE THE CHOICE AWAY FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.IT WOULD TEAR APART THE COUNTRY FOR GENERATIONS AND CHANGE OUR CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM FOREVER. QUESTION — WHAT SHOULD YOU DO? YOUR FIRST THOUGHT MIGHT BE THAT’S NOT A REALISTIC HYPOTHETICAL. THAT COULD NEVER HAPPEN IN AMERICA. BUT THEN YOU WOULD BE HAPPY BECAUSE YOU WOULD HAVE AN EASY ANSWER AND YOU CAN BE DONE WITH YOUR LAW SCHOOL EXAM, AND IT WOULD BE YOU IMMEDIATELY REJECT THE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT. BONUS QUESTION. SHOULD YOUR ANSWER DEPEND ON YOUR POLITICAL PARTY? ANSWER, NO. MY SECOND OBSERVATION IS THAT I ACTUALLY THINK IT’S VERY INSTRUCTIVE TO WATCH THE OLD VIDEOS FROM THE LAST TIME THIS HAPPENED. WHEN MANY OF YOU WERE MAKING SO ELOQUENTLY, MORE ELOQUENTLY THAN WE ARE THE ARGUMENTS ABOUT THE LAW AND THE PRECEDENT. BUT THAT’S NOT PLAYING A GAME OF GOTCHA. THAT’S PAYING YOU A COMPLIMENT. YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT THOSE PRINCIPLES. YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT THOSE PRINCIPLES. AND IF YOU WON’T LISTEN TO ME, I WOULD URGE YOU TO LISTEN TO YOUR YOUNGER SELVES. YOU WERE RIGHT. AND THE THIRD OBSERVATION IN SITTING HERE TODAY, JUDGE STARR TALKED ABOUT THAT WE’RE IN THE AGE OF IMPEACHMENT.IN THE AGE OF CONSTANT INVESTIGATIONS. IMAGINE — IMAGINE — IMAGINE IF ALL OF THAT ENERGY WAS BEING USED TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. IMAGINE IF THE AGE OF IMPEACHMENT WAS OVER IN THE UNITED STATES. IMAGINE THAT. AND I WAS LISTENING TO PROFESSOR DERSHOWITZ TALK ABOUT THE SHOE ON OTHER FOOT RULE, AND IT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE. I WOULD PUT IT A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY. I WOULD CALL IT THE GOLDEN RULE OF IMPEACHMENT FOR THE DEMOCRATS THE GOLDEN RULE COULD BE, DO UNTO REPUBLICANS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO DEMOCRATS, AND HOPEFULLY WE WILL NEVER BE IN ANOTHER POSITION IN THIS COUNTRY WHERE WE HAVE ANOTHER IMPEACHMENT, BUT VICE VERSA FOR THAT RULE. THOSE ARE MY THREE OBSERVATIONS. I HOPE THAT’S HELPFUL. THOSE WERE THE THOUGHTS I HAD LISTENING TO THE PRESENTATIONS. BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE MOST IMPORTANT THOUGHT IS THIS. THIS CHOICE BELONGS TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. THEY WILL GET TO MAKE IT MONTHS FROM NOW.THE CONSTITUTION AND COMMON SENSE AND ALL OF OUR HISTORY PREVENT YOU FROM REMOVING THE PRESIDENT FROM THE BALLOT. THERE’S NO BASIS FOR IT IN THE FACTS. THERE’S SIMPLY NO BASIS FOR IT IN THE LAW. AND I WOULD URGE YOU TO QUICKLY COME TO THAT CONCLUSION SO WE CAN GO HAVE AN ELECTION. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR ATTENTION AND THANK YOU, MR. CHIEF JUSTICE. THE PRESIDING OFFICER: THE MAJORITY LEADER IS RECOGNIZED. MR. McCONNELL: MR. CHIEF JUSTICE, I ASK UNANIMOUS CONSENT THAT THE TRIAL ADJOURN UNTIL 1:00 P.M. TUESDAY, JANUARY 28, AND THIS ORDER ALSO CONSTITUTE THE ADJOURNMENT OF THE SENATE. THE PRESIDING OFFICER: WITHOUT OBJECTION, WE ARE ADJOURNED. ADJOURN:.

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Disaster Debris Management Workshop — Ohio EPA

i’m just going to lead off with a coupleof comments here um i want to thank all our participants for helping us put this on forthe audience that we have through ohio epa our emergency management agency oursolid waste management districts of ohio our american public works association the countyengineers association of ohio and also the ohio environmental health association allwork together to either put this to put this together for you today or publicize it out toyour members so thank you very much i want to call out specifically john munir of the montgomerycounty solid waste district for his help planning this workshop you’ll hear from him a little bittoday and also to brock metzger and phil clayton from the ohio emergency management agency fortheir help in presenting and planning this today again to receive credit for attendingtoday please contact kevin zacharias or jeff montavon please pay attention to thechat feature their contact information has been added there for you a little bit about ohio epaand our division materials and waste management we are still working remotely we are doinga number of field visits and field work it is still limited at this time but we aredoing uh monitoring we’re doing sampling we are doing um our inspections of solid wastesites that we are have jurisdiction over coming up you’re going to hear an announcementshortly uh probably next week ohio epa and the ohio environmental health association will bepartnering once again to sponsor a two-hour for training this is going to be focusedon environmental enforcement so at this two-hour session you’re going to hear from markglasgow which is one of our ohio epa attorneys he’s going to cover inspection authority and rightof access we’re going to hear from brian peake from hamilton county sheriff’s department we’lltalk about their enforcement program down there and we’ll hear from our own kelly jeter who worksin our enforcement section and she’s going to be covering the procedure for elevating cases to theattorney general’s office when they are warranted finally ohio epa and the organization ofsolid waste districts of ohio or oswato are going to have one of their regularquarterly meetings on april 8th you’re invited to attend that and we’llhave some information coming out about that so um again uh those are uh comments fromthe division um if you have any questions for me you can email me uh after thisor um you can contact me specifically so vlad zika our chief says hello he can’t be heretoday but he thanks you all for joining us as well and with that we can get started thank you thanks rick appreciate it so next on our agenda wehave phil clayton and brock metzger from ohio ema on what is the debris management plan and what isthe solid waste management role during a disaster alrighty good morning everybody my name is brockmetzger i’m with the ohio emergency management agency i’m with the disaster recovery branchthere i help coordinate the fema public assistance program the program where debris managementactivities following a disaster will be reimbursed so we’ll be talking a lot of details uh therealso in my shop we oversee the state’s uh debris management plans and if you have any questionsregarding a debris management plan or if you’re looking for some of the approvals that we’re goingto discuss today uh feel free to coordinate those with me my information will be throughout theslides today and i will be uh a key presenter through today um so without further ado i’m justgoing to go ahead and get started um kevin if you can just give me a a quick affirmativethat uh you are seeing the slide show here perfect thank you very much all right so umour first topic today of discussion our first topic of discussion today is what is a debrismanagement plan well i thought that was good okay so a degree management plan is that writtendocument and it establishes procedures and guidelines for managing you know disaster debrisand what that what this written document will help you do is coordinate response and ensurethat you are following all environmental uh responsibilities that that are put on uhbestowed upon you um in your operations so we’re just going to go ahead and keep moving here so youknow as you can imagine planning and exercising and training for for disaster times is is veryimportant and why it’s so important to have a debris management plan is again it’ll help youfacilitate the response activities and coordinate amongst your local jurisdictions a lot easierand it’ll also set you up for a a very um robust recovery effort as well so ensuringproper documentation for reimbursement and uh so on and so forth so it’ll help um you know as youcoordinate the your your response in the disaster um one thing the more coordinated yourresponse is you know you can target the hardest hit areas and you know identify thoselocations and and resources for those activities it’ll help return your community to a senseof normalcy uh sooner rather than later um it’ll also help reduce the impacts uh to to ourenvironment and the the human health and safety surrounding uh you know that disasterso with we we like to be mindful of our disaster survivors and understanding that youknow they that they just went through a lot of times a once in a lifetime event and thethe faster we can return our communities to to a sense of normalcy the the better forour disaster survivors and our constituents and it’ll help minimize cost you knowever at the at the end of the day after it’s all said and done and you know that nobodylikes to be broke after a disaster and you know having that uh you know plan will help youestablish the documentation requirements up front and help minimize the cost with the activitieswhich will ultimately lead to a better recovery so it’s not just a debris managementplan yes i mentioned that your debris management plan is a written document andit establishes those policies and procedures however it’s the process of developing the planthat plays a critical role in these disasters nobody likes to to meet somebody uh to work withthem at the time of a disaster so working through a debris management plan locally will give youthat opportunity to build the relationships with some of your local partners and uhand entering into any pre-existing mutual aid agreements and so on and so forth that willhelp you again establish those those roles and responsibilities and making sure everybody’son the same page before the disaster strikes so that planning process is a six-step processuh you know first the you have to establish you know a collaborative planning team so thisthis planning team should encompass you know your uh whole community and at all of thoselocal jurisdictions within your community uh your your other local partners that couldprovide resources uh for debris management activities and then step two is you have tounderstand the situation so what are we doing you know what what are we looking to do uh withthis debris management plan and you’re going to so we’re going to go into these steps in a little bitdetail so i’m not going to hit them too hard here but i just want to show you that it’s a circlethis this graphic is to depict that you know a planning process a planning process never endsso you you develop the the planning team and you work through these steps and uh an event or anexercise happens you find gaps in your plan and you revise the plan and you work through the theprocess once again so it’s it’s a constant cycle so identifying that that planning team likei mentioned it’s you know the whole community approach so if you have task force or communityaction agencies within your jurisdiction having them involved in the planning process and andall of your you know local officials local um solid waste districts local health departmentseverybody’s a a key player in this and again making those connections through thisplanning process is critical and um and developing those relationships prior toto a disaster time so our second step is again understanding the situation so we have to you knowwe in ohio we realize that our largest uh disaster impact is is flooding events and then secondcomes the tornadoes or however you rank your uh hazards within your county if you knowevery county is unique and has their own tributaries and their own areas of concern soidentifying those threats and hazards through the planning process will help you develop a betterpicture of where you’re heading through the plan so our third step is to develop the goals andobjectives so we’ve identified you know our threats and hazards so uh we in xy county realizethat our our largest impact or our most recurring disaster is tornado events so let’s focus on thattornado event and how are our you know reaching back to history and identi and identifying thoseum impacts that were made from from historical events and looking through uh some other uhforecasting methods that we’ll talk in a bit uh you can you know gain a picture or a sense of whata that type of disaster could do to your community so then you want to um break out those uhimpacts and you know first you want to focus on uh you know the response which is the initialclearance so we need to open our roadways for our first responders to to get um criticalaccess into their areas and we need to make sure our critical transportation routes are open so wecan get folks to and from uh their their house to the store so they can get goods and supplies andthen uh from there after you know our critical access routes are open and we have the capacitywe’re going to move into what we call a recovery phase of debris management which goes throughand actually performs the removal so during that initial clearance phase you could be cuttingand tossing your vegetative debris to the side of into your public right-of-way and then therecovery uh portion of the debris management would be coming through and picking up thatvegetative debris from your road right away so all goals and objectives uh one thing i’m sure most of you are familiar with a smart goal uhbut we in emergency management focus on smart goals when developing plans so your your goalmust be specific and it’s got to be measurable it has to be achievable realistic and timelyso uh you know working through those goals make sure you have that smart goal in mind andwe have some prompting questions here on the slide for you to ask yourself when developingthose goals to ensure they are a smart goal so next uh you know after you’ve developed youunderstand the situation you’ve got your goals and objectives now you’re going to work throughthe plan development phases so again it’s the scenario based events so we’re we’re goingto look at our threats and hazards and we’re going to look through the plan requirementswhich we’re going to discuss here briefly in regards to the different planning componentsthat fema likes to see in debris management plans and you’re going to consider the needs and demandsso what what do we need if this event were to happen again what do we need uh to to clear ourto do our response clearance and then come back and do the recovery clearance and and having thoseum realistic ideas of of what the impacts may be and what your resource capabilitieswould be uh will allow you to determine the tasks and assignments and assign thoseresponsibilities to your appropriate partners so planning components so these are to have afema approved debris management plan these are the debris management plan components so you have tohave a purpose a scope assumptions so your purpose would be we are establishing a degree managementplan in x y and z jurisdiction uh to help better coordinate response and recovery effortsfrom a debris generating event our scope would be those events and uh our scope and assumptionswould be the events and areas of impacts and then you’re going to look through the conceptof operations so how are we going to perform the debris collection and removal if are we going toestablish debris management sites and where are our nearest disposal locations what makes themost sense based off of our events and assumptions and then you’re gonna startassigning uh areas of responsibility so this kind of breaks it down a little bit moreof the planning components you know we have the debris removal on private propertywhich is another key area that fema likes to see thought through through a debrismanagement plan we’ll talk through some of the fema stipulations when it comes to removingdebris from private property and some of the considerations for you and your jurisdiction toconsider when uh dealing with private property debris removal procurement and contractualservices so as you go through your planning team and you realize uh what you have available to youand you and you find areas of concern or gaps in your resources then it may be best to identifysome contract services that or contractors that can provide you those services in in a time ofneed ahead of time and that way all you have to do you’ve gone through the the procurementregulations which again will will touch more on later today but uh making sure that youwork through the proper procurement regulations when identifying contractors before a disasterso there’s no questions uh when it whenever a disaster happens and and you need somebodyright now you have them already pre-identified and you’ve made sure that you’ve already followedthose those required regulations and then monitoring of debris operations that is a criticalcomponent that’s often overlooked uh monitoring fema requires that you monitor all debrisoperations and today we’re going to talk about technology and how you can utilize technologyto perform this debris monitoring operation so as most plants you have to have those healthand safety requirements so making sure that you know that our first and foremost objective anddebris management activities is the health and safety of our disaster survivors in the healthand safety of our um individuals that are working to on through the debris management activities andthen we want to make sure in our plan that we talk environmental considerations and other regulatoryrequirements as you know and as rick will talk in a bit just because the disaster happened that doesnot mean uh you can start going against the the law and the letter that states that you have tofollow um x y and z to to do disposal activities so again we’ll talk more on the the environmentaland regulatory requirements in a bit um this plan component listing is kind of to give you a littlepreemptive boost as to what we’re looking for in a debris management plan but what we’re going to hitthrough throughout the day so public information as always um being open and honest withyour public and where you’re going to have that operations going and so so folkscan better plan on their side um whether it be traveling to and from the store if you haveuh if you know informing the public we’re going to be in your neighborhood these days of theweek they can work ahead of time to have their their debris you know ready for you to pick upfrom the public right away and they can plan their their travel activities so they’re notuh messing up uh your operations so the annexes of the plan are some of the fema summary formswhich are forms that can be used to document cost we do offer some cost documentation coursesum we actually have a public assistance doc cost documentation course being offeredtomorrow uh if you want to sign up for that course feel free to reach out to me or youcan look uh for future offerings of the public assistance cost documentation course through theohio department of public safety training campus so here’s a listing of some of theadditional considerations that we talked briefly and we will discuss in more detail on whata mutual aid agreement looks like and what that some of the existing mutual aid agreementsthat are out there that your jurisdiction may be able to utilize in a time of need so uh this slide is uh depicting that you canhave a degree management plan as a standalone plan where you can it can be includedin your county emergency operations plan uh and here in uh the next few minutes philclayton is going to be discussing kind of an emergency operations center in that emergencyoperations plan locally so that debris management plan can be tied to that emergency operationsuh plan or it could be a standalone plan exercised um outside of the emergency operationsplan nonetheless um a debris management plan is a debris management plan whether it is an annexor a standalone so as i’ve mentioned you can have a fema approved debris management plan andwhat that process looks like would be uh for you guys to work through the first four stepsamongst uh your your local jurisdiction and uh through your planning team and then you would sendthat plan up to myself at ohio ema we will review that plan provide uh cons considered actions umwe at ohio ema will coordinate with uh rick and his shop at ohio epa to ensure their commentsuh are incorporated as well and then once uh we have a satisfactory plan and we feel it meetsfema’s requirements we will send it to fema for their review and approval having a fema approveddebris management plan currently in alternate um procedures under fema’s program can give youa one-time cost share of 10 increase so fema normally reimburses at 75 percent if you ifyour county has a debris a fema approved debris management plan uh your county could receive85 federal reimbursement for debris activities so once you have your plan you know it’s gonethrough the preparation and the review and approval stages uh you can then you know implementand maintain your plan so that those that can be done through training and exercises so real worldevents or setting up um tabletop discussions any sort of emergency management training activityso you can work through your plan and making sure that you identify the gaps of your plan and thencircling it back to through your planning team and then back through the steps to ensurethat those gaps are accounted for in your plan so here’s uh sometimes uh some keys keyconsider uh consideration times where you may want to review your plan so after a major eventhappens you’re more than likely gonna want to revisit your plan to ensure that you account forthose gaps if you have changes in resources or stakeholders or changes in legislation orordinances so if you have uh identified in your plan that a local um disposal site is isavailable but that disposal site is no longer available well it’s time to go back and revisityour debris management plan and update that information so it’s up to date andable to be utilized when it’s needed so some planning resource uh that that are outthere there’s a haza’s software um this can be ran through an arcgis software um it can tell you theimpact that has us right now is um utilized for earthquake events and flooding events soyou can set your you know flood stages and or your earthquake magnitude and you wouldplug in your data from your local jurisdiction into this gis geographic information system andit would populate uh you know with a 5.0 magnitude earthquake in your jurisdiction you could uhexpect you know 8 000 cubic yards of debris and here’s how many truck loads that thatit would take so that’s one uh software that can be utilized uh an another one uh planningresources is uh ohio epa’s green sheets uh this uh were fema’s uh epa uh green sheet so they issueum you know based off of the event uh they they issue these green sheets saying you know here’ssome acceptable debris management activities a lot of times we don’t get those green sheets untilum after the the debris management activities are either ongoing or have completed um so theythose green sheets come with a fema declaration which a lot of times comes prior or post debrismanagement activities so um having your current or prior green sheets available through your planningprocess is is critical and if you’re looking for any uh prior green sheets reach out to myselfand i’ll be happy to to get you that information fema has a degree management guide uh a guidingdocument there’s a the web link for that and uh fema’s public assistance program and policy guideso this is the document that fema utilizes to administer the public assistance programso any anything as it relates not just to debris management but as it relates to publicassistance as a whole a lot of those questions and answers can be found within the publicassistance program or paul and policy guide our ohio ema web page is kept up to date withthat public assistance program policy guide an additional debris management outlinesand activities so we have our our debris fact sheet for local officials we have a debrismanagement plan handbook so this will help you walk through your planning process it’llprovide that additional resource and we out we also have sample plans available on our ohioema web page there so if you go to ema.ohio.gov you’ll see where it says branches and youwould select disaster recovery on the left hand side you would select debris management andit would give you all of our available resources for debris management planning and then anotherresource for you is myself like i had mentioned and here’s my contact information so feelfree to reach out to me if you have any questions regarding a debris management planand i’d be happy to discuss so now i’m going to turn it over to uh phil clayton to talkabout our local partners role in a disaster phil the floor is yours just go ahead and letme know when you want me to advance the slide absolutely thank you brock and good morning folksas brock indicated my name is philip clayton i am the southwest regional supervisor for theohio emergency management agency supporting the counties in west central and southwest ohioand go ahead and advance to the next side please i’m going to walk through a couple slides thatprimarily depict the disaster life cycle the disaster sequence of events leading up to and fora federal declaration and also highlight the role of the emergency operations center and how theeoc supports the debris manager or dm during a debris generating event in the state of ohio i ienjoy including this slide in in a wide variety of presentations that we do across the emergencymanagement enterprise mainly because i think it is is is extremely visually stimulating uh to um thenational response framework and encompassing the national disaster recovery framework in thatthe decisions that we made in the preparedness and pre-disaster preparedness realm um todayhow they impact you know those months and years of recovery as we work through a disaster sequenceso once again sometimes we have that warning period where we are able or have the capacityto increase readiness uh pre-position resources so on and so forth um and sometimes we we don’tonce the disaster occurs naturally the local government and i know we have many of our localcounty emergency management agency directors on this presentation as well are really thatyou know first line of defense in coordinating those local government resources so as we workthrough um kind of our spheres of influences and and requests for resources by the localgovernment that would be when the state agencies or organizations may become engaged as we continueto have go down the path of our emergency response typically the state agenciesand organizations would then start to assess a rapid needs assessment and workthrough the damage assessment process leading up to a joint preliminary damage assessment byfema sba the small business administration and the state at this point we would then movetowards that request for presidential disaster assistance by the governor an analysis wouldbe made by fema and ultimately end up for the emergency or major disaster declaration to thepresident in ohio the emergency operation plan or our eop is structured on a system of 15 emergencysupport functions or esf’s and four annexes that correspond to the format of the national responseframework go ahead and base the slide rock at the local and county level workingup through the regions to ultimately the state’s emergency operations center the eoc helpscoordinate and support by identifying those gaps in capabilities or any shortfalls and workto manage resources to support the incident i mentioned previously the state’s emergencyoperation plan and brock had also mentioned the disaster debris management plan canbe a standalone plan a tab or an annex to the county level eop for the emergencysupport function in the state of ohio eop basically it outlines and describes thestate’s operational response structure discuss discusses the state’s hazards and risksand outlines how the state will mitigate prepare for respond to and recover from emergenciesand disasters advance the slide please mark as we work through the disaster sequence the mainobjective and priority for county level emergency management agencies as they activate theiremergency operations center is one of coordinating prioritizing resources managing the informationthat we have at hand and coordinating with elected and appointed officials all communities haveunique circumstances that impact types amounts and responses to debris these may include typesof local businesses in industry land use size of the overall community topography and each will beincident specific typically the disaster debris management plan at the county level is activatedthrough the county emergency operations center by any requesting agency having response orrecovery responsibilities including a local political jurisdiction an incident commanderon scene ics or incident command system or as forecasted by the county emergencymanagement agency next slide please brock go ahead and advance one more please there we go thank you so once again i want tohighlight the managing of of consequences as we work through the activation of the plan theactivation may or may not be contingent on the declaration of emergency by the county boardof commissioners when the eoc activates the primary core and support agencies are taskedwith specific implementation roles as outlined in the overall debris management plan it’snot atypical for us to see in ohio and in several of the counties in which i serveas the emergency support function three as as a tab so you’ll have primary agenciestypically county solid waste districts you’ll have core agencies this is where the countylevel emergency management agency comes in county engineers office cityengineer and service departments and then working down through our support agenciestypically the county combined health districts local health departments and local governmentaljurisdictions go ahead and advance please brooke we talk about information display the use of webeoc charts charts and maps a little bit later in this presentation we’ll work through a gisor arcgis product that brock will demonstrate that was used during the miami valley tornadooutbreak representatives will use wfc for ultimate coordination collaboration and historical recordsof activities throughout the incident response extraordinary demands will be placed on publicand private resources for debris management following a disaster eventthat goes without saying this helps and allows for a coordinatedcommunity effort that will be required to effectively collect remove and dispose of debrisfollowing the disaster go ahead and advance these visual displays allow us to seewhat resources are currently available what resource courses are currently being usedand what resources are currently needed we work through our operational or incident commandsystem ics worksheets that’s an ics 215 for people keeping score at home that allowsus to identify our have’s needs and wants and highlight activating those mous or moas that couldtypically be needed from adjacent jurisdictions and should be naturally coordinated withpre-disaster planning making resource requests from partners to the county eoc if if and whenthat exceeds the scope and capacity of the local jurisdiction those resource requests would bepushed to the state’s emergency operations center for facilitation next slide please so benefitsof the eoc and we’ve we’ve learned to work in a virtual environment naturally in the face ofcoven 19 but a typical eoc setup would allow for that face-to-face contact issues can be discussedbetween a vast variety of disciplines in a common setting and helps to avoid those communicationissues and working in silos across the spectrum one of the the biggest highlights for the increased situationalawareness would be just the visual displays and ability to track resources and items inreal time which allows for a quicker and more manageable support to the debris manager or dm inthe field once again you heard me say previously the eoc is the main and prior priority supportfor the debris manager in the field it allows for a consistent and concise message and easierpublic information dissemination to coordinate that message continuum to the public to ensureconsistency and accuracy in messaging next slide i briefly discussed the management of consequencesearlier establishment of priorities development of that cop or common operating picture and theability to coordinate across levels of government up down and across the spectrum facilitatessmooth transitions between operational periods those operational periods being set by way of ofof the priorities of on-scene incident command and ultimately driven as we move through the disastersequence by the debris manager or dm in the field it allows us to address response and recoveryneeds working through our sit unit or resource unit or documentation unit as outlined inthe graphic on the slide you see next slide working through the cycle of the disaster i liketo throw this one back up here just because once again i think it is is is really an importantum stimulation of the intermediate to long-term recovery and how those disaster preparednessexercises partnership building and articulation of protocols lead us to a smoother transition aswe work through the long-term recovery mechanism next slide think i can get back to you here brock thanks phil so with that i’m going to look tokevin we want to take questions from the chat yeah of course so we did have acouple of questions that came through um the first is brock can you restate the increasein funding reimbursement for a fema approved plan yes absolutely yeah absolutely i um if if your jurisdiction has a fema approveddebris management plan your jurisdiction could receive 85 of federal funding for thosedebris management activities uh typically those debris management activities are limited to75 reimbursement with uh some stipulations involved there regarding regular time labor butwe’ll jump into those stipulations when we talk female reimbursement in the afternoon session okayperfect and then the other question that we got in was how long does a fema approved plan last doesit need to be resubmitted after several years uh so there’s no regulatory requirement fromfema’s end so once you have a fema approved debris management plan uh you have a female approveddebris management plan there’s no regulatory requirement where you have to resubmit and regaintheir approval at this time not to say that they they won’t move to something of that nature butright now there’s there’s no need to uh revisit uh or resubmit to fema however you you knowas i discussed that planning cycle is a continuous process and never ending awesome thankyou um we did get just one more question that came in um does that mean any jurisdictionshould have a debris management plan well certainly i’d love to see uh every uhjurisdiction in the state of ohio have a debris management plan uh so a a countycan can host a debris management plan for for the local jurisdictions uh within thatcounty and each jurisdiction would receive that federal cost share increase i’m sure that’s wherethat questions pointed towards but um you know right now we have i believe i i can count them onmy hands uh less than ten more than five of fema approved debris management plans through the stateso um that you know each local jurisdiction is not necessarily required to have their own debrismanagement plan it could be hosted at the county level however however if a local jurisdictionis having troubles uh getting the traction at the county level uh to administer a debrismanagement plan they could always establish a debris management plan for their own jurisdictionso that’s it’s kind of a two-sided spectrum there awesome perfect um and then it looks like weactually had a hand raised right now um and i’m not sure if you wanted to ask a question um yesi have just a quick comment as i understood it the 85 um that that higher rate of reimbursementinvolved being able to manage the uh the recovery from the problem within 30 days and thatif you weren’t able to do it within 30 days that could drop to an 80 percent if you didit within 90 days so one of the advantages of updating your plan every year wasto try to ensure that you could have management and recovery within a month becausethe faster you got the problem resolved the more likely you were to be eligible for 85 percent isthat still true there’s a time limit on that um greater reimbursement for an approved for afema approved plan yeah there’s so the fema does look at it as like a rolling um if you havea degree management plan and they give you that approval of your degree management plan um thereare some some further stipulations regarding that increased federal cost share um there’s timeswhere it could go up to 90 percent uh depending on how quick your debris operations are done so it’skind of incentivize the local jurisdictions to as you mentioned update the plan but alsoexercise the plan efficiently in the time of the disaster and restore the community to asense of normalcy uh sooner rather than later but that’s not to say fema wouldn’t make anexception for those times those time frames those time frames aren’t regulatory they’remore um policy based so fema always has the the opportunity to revisit policy um that that theyum have issued so that’s um i’ve seen that done in my time in florida following hurricane irma uhwe had a bunch of fema approved debris management plans and those those time frames were shiftingback and forth um and it all honestly it follows to the presidential level at some times whenit comes to reimbursement of what fema calls emergency work which debris removal falls underso we could always see a federal cost share from approved from our president for100 for emergency work and then 75 for our permanent work um so there’salways different flavors and varieties of presidential disaster declarations andfema reimbursement however um you know it’s just there’s no set one answer tothat question so that’s thanks thank you well brooke i don’t see any additionalquestions coming through the chat um i haven’t gotten anything through email as wellbut i guess a comment that keeps coming up um will the slides be uh sent out yes a linkto the slides will be sent out and this presentation is being recorded so a link to therecording will be sent out as well for everyone so just uh wanted to reiterate that as well butwith that that brock i’ll turn it back over to you okay so we’re gonna um talk debris forecastingand estimating um i’m going to try it without my camera on so hopefully it’ll delay some ofthe latency issue um so uh debris forecasting forecasting i’m sorry debris forecasting andestimating are one in the same but different in in that same approach so debris forecastingis a planning activity so looking you know forecasting ahead kind of like our weather mangives a seven day forecast or five day forecast we’re looking ahead um so it takes place beforean event and it provides a general idea of the debris generation for particular events uhand it’s essential for proper preparation so forecasting debris impacts from uh potentialhazards and threats is is key uh because it’ll allow you to again have that proper preparationand identification of uh needs and um the what needs to be done and how can we do it the how thatbreakdown that phil was was sharing with us so there’s multiple methods to create debris forecastas i briefly touched on in our what is the debris management plan uh section there is uh you knowyou can always perform an historical analysis so we’ve we’ve had x y and z number of events here’sthe impacts that those events uh had on our jurisdictions and then you can plan and preparebased off of current resources and capabilities or you can do a community based risk analysisum so that that has a multi-step component to it of um you know resource requirements whatare the like i had mentioned earlier there’s you know every jurisdiction every county everylocal municipality local municipality has their own critical needs so um in our river river uhcities we have um you know i’ve been dealing with some debris issues in the city of marietta andone of their uh debris issues is uh that there’s a very very large tree bulge in uh their port sohaving that that’s that’s been impacting their um import export capabilities and those resourcesthat come through their their jurisdiction so having those key areas identified through thatcommunity but risk analysis will help you plan and prepare for things of that nature um and thenour next uh method that we’re going to discuss is that the computer modeling as i mentioned that hassoftwares and there are some different variants out there uh for computer analysis so the firstone we’re going to talk about historical analysis so we’re going to again review the historicalevents newspapers and photos a lot of times we have that one person that works in our officethat’s been doing it for 30 years and they’ve seen it time and time again so you knowhaving them part of your planning team and and talking through that process willprovide that perspective from your staff or if you have a a citizen that’s willing andable to participate and share their story will will help you gain a better more realistic pictureof what what type of debris we are forecasting so um one thing that we mentionhere is you know if you’re looking at historical events another thing to keepin mind is review of changes over time so we had a tornado impact uh our northwestjurisdiction or northwest quadrant of our county uh back in 1983 when that tornado came throughthat was cornfields and cow pastures now that same area is our urban um it’s got a mall and it’sgot you know a travel plaza or so on and so forth identifying um you know those impacts and thencross checking those historical events from you know how have you know what’s changed in thearea local or the landfill capacity changes so is our landfill coming towards a near fullcapacity and they’re working through the process of gaining additional capacity or has thelandfill in the last five years prior to the post the historical event have theychanged their their capacity status so uh response capability of the the communitiesso we all know that um resources come and resources go so having those uh changes made andand um making yourselves aware of that within uh your structure is is critical um so you’renot pointing to one individual or one resource um we know the sheriff’s office has the um swattruck and we need the swat truck for site security however you reach out to the sheriff’s officebut they got rid of the swat truck last year so having those types of discussionsand regarding resources capabilities will help you make a better more timely judgmentin a time of uh debris generating event and then changes in laws and regulations as we all knowthose change as well so having those changes um keeping those changes in mind and how theywould impact your your debris um forecasting activities then that is critical as well so femauses these are fema’s totals for forecasting you know for historical values so if you’re lookingat one critical neighborhood in your area in their typical mobile home neighborhoods youknow you have a 100 units in that neighborhood half of them are single wide half of them aredouble wides and and you’re forecasting that that mobile mobile home part is always repetitivelyflood damaged so um you can estimate a debris quantity or you can forecast a debris quantityfrom that uh that impact of that disaster based off of these quantities that fema hasprovided um so for just your standard home fema’s giving you the um that cubic yardconversion as well for forecasting purposes uh so the community risk analysis so um likei said we’re gonna locate our flood zones um you know those unusual wind-prone areas soyou know we all know where those are within our jurisdictions um and and we’ve seen it timeand time again um the review of the land use and overlay with uh risk areas uh predict uh debrisgeneration so categorize like land use and risk areas so if you have um if you’re forecastingdebris in your northwest quadrant of your county and that is your industrial park you knowthat you’re gonna have a strong potential for hazardous waste so keeping that in theback of your mind while um working in and forecasting debris is is critical as well so landuse drives the the debris types that we will see so um looking at you know where ourwaste handling facilities are waste removal capacity and uh predicting thoseeffects of uh or forecasting our debris uh and how those would reflect uh affectour uh capability to respond to that event um so uh knowing where your resources are andmaking sure that they are made available to you when needed is is critical so that’spart of that community risk analysis uh another another tools to to look for anddebris forecasting are aerial photographies uh your auditor or recorder’s office has theseuh historical aerial photographies another thing that’s great new use of technology is google earthum or other satellite mapping sites google earth is the the the key one that i’m aware of but i’msure there’s others out there but you can always you know zoom in and see here’s our types ofhouses and here’s you know there’s five industrial buildings within this urban neighborhood sowe we know if we’re responding to here there’s that strong potential of hazardous materialsand keeping those types of impacts in mind the u.s flood insurance rate maps um if if umyou’re familiar with the u.s flood insurance rate maps then then you you know what they whatthey pose they pose um if you’re a higher rate in that area then you know you’re you’re moreprone to flooding and that’s how those maps are presented so utilizing those maps uh as aforecasting debris forecasting activity is uh encouraged weather almanac’s uh gis maps as imentioned that has this report so you can utilize those two different types of events and plug inyour in community information and it’ll give you that generated report on different debris typesand quantities and then ground surveys is another example as well um as opposed to the aerialphotography so i wanted to show you this is kind of uh an example of what we can look for umyou know the the mapping over here on the left this was a gis map from butler county thisis depicting our flooding impacts along uh that those areas so looking you know moreparticular at you know right in this area here i’m sorry right down here this you know as we honein towards aerial imagery we can see that you know this is a park and there’s um these ball fieldsand things of that nature so what what can we forecast as debris from this area and looking youknow that’s one of our uh heaviest hit of flooding areas and and keeping this overhead imagery kindof as a as a guiding tool of you know we need to focus down down in our southwest quadrant of thecounty and then looking towards the northeast um or so on and so have you so this will kindof point you in the right direction on where you need to to look uh for resources and havingresources available following a debris event here’s another example of that you know the firstbreakdown on the right was this this area down here this breakdown is showing up here towardsthe high school and you can see there is a high school here so um keeping in mind there’s a highschool what time of day is school in or school out um and and if we have a debris generating eventand our flood waters start rising well we’re gonna have to get kids out of school and andto home so we need to make sure that we have these critical access routes open and able toget the people out of harm’s way to a safe spot here’s some more examples of computer modeling youcan utilize um that are available when out there here’s another formula that uh fema’sare the usa the army corps of engineers computer modeling utilizes um and i’m notgoing to go in detail on the formula but you can utilize this for yourforecasting activities uh moving forward one key uh concept that’s put on the slide is thebest forecast are created you using a combination of all available forecasting techniques soutilizing the overhead imagery will will point will point you to an area of concernand utilizing a computer modeling may point you to another area of concern so getting thatholistic approach of on what what our debris forecast looks like will help you prepareand respond a lot easier and efficiently so that was the brief forecasting now now we’regoing to discuss debris estimating so debris estimating is a post-event activity so this takesplace after the damage is done so the disaster has come through our community and now we need togo out and see you know what what the damage is and where it’s at so estimating this debris iscritical in um assigning resources to those those areas you know you don’t want to send five six-mancrew to uh the northwest quadrant if your heaviest hit area is in the southeast um so having thatrealistic um estimate on where the debris is and will help you drive your response and thendebris recovery activities and it’s essential for the proper plan execution again in ourplan we’re going to identify those resources our potential debris management sites and someof our operations and our laws and regulations so if uh we go out and we do a debris estimateand we realize that our debris is um in a like a a wetland or some protected habitat area well thattriggers you know that could potentially trigger uh more or additional environmental concernsthat we need to keep in mind as well um multiple methods to create the estimates again you canuse the ground measurements so you can go out and you know take visuals um utilizing some of theformulas that we’re going to discuss so we have 36 homes impacted and here’s of fema’s calculationon those types of home and their estimated debris from this type of event and you can quantify yourdebris in that fashion you can use aerial imagery this is something that we’ve used recently inour southernmost tip of ohio and lawrence and gallia county uh they have uh they’re currentlydealing with some power restoration from some from a debris generating ice storm so uh what theyhad done was they put in lawrence lawrence county ema put in a mission request for a a flyoverof the area so we can obtain these aerial photography so we can see where the debris isand um it’ll help you gain and that realistic holistic approach on where it is and what we needto do and one thing that you can do is you can take you know aerial imagery before a disaster andafter disaster and you can toggle them back and forth so you can see well there was you know sixhomes and on this street but uh photos after the aerial imagery taking after the event has now ledto um those six homes no longer being in the photo so you uh you know that there’s six homes lostor destroyed there and six homes worth of debris accuracy is important because it helps youestablish your skill of recovery efforts so um you know if you know having an accuratedebris estimate will help you realize sooner that you know what resources you needso you’re not you’re not over resourced or under resourced when it comes to um you knowit helps you find that sweet spot of a response and helping return that community toa sense of normalcy again um it uh aids mobilization of adequate resources andimproves the cost uh containment so again if if you don’t have an accurate debris estimate thenthere’s a strong possibility that you’re taking that you could be taking resources that youmay not need and then those resources would be um billed to you which would then cost youmore money even though you may have not needed those resources in the first place so and it’llhelp prevent fraud so you know what’s out there and um having that realistic approach andthen you’re not going to have somebody claim that their disaster um damaged their homeand you know from uh prior instances where that home was in the same state as it was uhfollowing the it was in the same state before the disaster as it was following the disasterum so estimate quantity and type of debris that’s important because different types of debrisgo to different disposal locations so knowing the the different types of debris will help youestablish the necessary resources so um you’re not necessarily it’s not a huge need to havebackhoes and uh those that type of heavy machinery if all you’re dealing with is vegetative debriswhere you know if you’re dealing with vegetative debris then you need lots of chainsaws lots of youknow gas for those soils manpower to run the soils and trucks to haul that vegetative debriswhereas opposed if you’re dealing with construction and demolition debris from a housethen uh it’s a lot easier to know that you need a trackhoe or a backhoe to tohelp clear some of that heavier material uh safety is paramount again havingyou know don’t go into an area where it’s unsafe just to perform a debris estimateum you know don’t walk into that wildlife area that was um that’s got trees hangingon top of trees and trees hanging down and broken up and it’s just not a safe area to be walkingunder so having that that say realistic goal of what’s out there is critical but it’s not ascritical as you getting injured performing the the debris estimating activity so here’s again thosethose conversion factors for one story building and take the length width and height and dividethat by 27 and then multiply it by a factor of uh one third of it is that accounts for the air spaceso that’ll give you if this if your one story building is completely demolished and you plug thelength width and height into that uh calculation that’ll give you a cubic yard estimate to utilizeand the same with mobile homes and debris piles so if you take the length width and height anddivide it by 27 that’ll give you a cubic yard debris file volume to weight equivalence um soconstruction demolition piles uh two cubic yards equals one ton whereas solid waste piles arethree cubic yards to one ton so what that means is there’s there’s different conversionswhen you’re estimating debris in a cubic yard fashion but then trying to convert that overto a tonnage for say billing or disposal fees then keeping in mind that there isdifferent conversions or weight factors in mind based off the type of waste soyour construction and demolition piles uh you know two cubic yards would equal one tonthat means it’s heavier than the solid waste piles which is three cubic yards equals one ton becauseof that air space and and the compaction uh so different things you know way you know afeather weighs lighter than a book type deal uh wood tree piles there are some of the cubicyards for the vegetative debris conversions for you to utilize uh in your debris estimatinghere’s another chart um on on debris quantities so if if you’re looking at some of your aerialimagery and you know that that typical neighborhood is roughly twelve thousand squarefoot homes and you can go through and calculate um the uh and and this also adds in that vegetativecover multiplier so what that means is if you have a well-established or older neighborhood there’sa chance that you have more vegetative cover in that neighborhood whereas a newly developedneighborhood may not have those that same level of vegetative cover so keeping in mind keepingthat in mind this will give you that chart with you know your typical home based off thatneighborhood say um our typical home size and this impacted juris or this impactedneighborhood is roughly 1400 square foot based off of our auditor’s reports and it’sa newly built area so we’re just going to say there’s um didn’t mean to do that sorry thatthere’s none to light vegetative cover which will then give you like that cubic yard estimateand you know there’s say 30 homes damaged in that area so you can multiply one of thosefactors by 30 to get you a cubic yard estimate you say flood debris model so um usedto calculate debris quantities from a flooding event only when the structure isnot destroyed so this will help you get the realistic approach to those um impacted facilitiesthat are not destroyed by the event so the the materials that are inside so if a flood happenssay the the building itself is structurally sound and not damaged but everything inside carpetuh furnishings uh you know util utilities um appliances all of those things couldbe damaged from that flood event you may not have the constructionand demolition debris but you have the household appliances and so on and soforth to consider so this this flood modeling will help you get that cubic yard estimate andthere’s that formula so you take the square foot times the point zero two and that’llgive you that cubic yard to account for the the furnishings the floorings andthings like that damaged by a flood even so here’s an example of what i was talking aboutso here’s our overhead overhead imagery let’s say this is our mobile home park that was damaged byour tornado and we know there’s these mobile homes are typically in this damaged area they’re singlewides and looking at this would be post event um imagery here but if we take say the priorpre-event imagery and we can go through and say there’s you know six homes on this streetseven homes on this street and now there’s three left and there’s four left so we had three damagefour damage so on and so forth and then you can multiply from aerial aerial imagery by the type ofuh facility or type of building it was to get you again another um cubic yard estimate for uh yeahdebris estimating so that’s what i have for debris forecasted forecasting and estimating uh i’mgoing to turn it over to kevin for any questions thank you brock appreciate it we did have a coupleof questions that came in um so the first is and i know it was answered in the chat but i justwant to for anyone who has called in just uh to say it out loud is there a website listing of thecounties with approved debris management plans um no there there is no website listing ofthat if you are interested if your county is um has a approved debris management plan feelfree to reach out to myself um and i will uh be glad to answer that for you um like i hadmentioned there’s somewhere between five and ten fema approved debris management plans so there’snot many the chances are your county does not have one but i’m more than happy to look throughour data and provide you a adequate answer for your local municipality awesome thank you and thenthe other question that we received are there any grant funds available to help lhd and ema partnersto complete an approved debris management plan there is no existing grant program that’ll for forplanning purposes um there i’m i’m phil you might be able to speak more to this uh for an emergencypreparedness grant aspect which my shop does not oversee that’s more of a preparedness grantthat comes into the county levels i’m not sure if you could charge some of that time uh to theemergency preparedness grant process but however through you know as it directly relates to debrismanagement plan development there is no existing uh planning program all right thank you sorryyep and then the final question actually comes from one of our callers from u.s epa region 5.Doyou use the epa iwaste tool for debris forecast documentation the person knows of the tool butthey’re curious if it’s used at a local level i’m not aware of any use of that that toolum i’m i’m not even aware of the tool but i will definitely uh jot that one down formyself to do some further research into um i’m not aware of any utilization of the toolum locally but if it’s a good tool i’d be happy to incorporate it into our additional offerings andworkshops to to share that with with our partners perfect um and that was thefinal question that we received within the chat and there are no questions sofar through email as well so brock i think at this point our plan was to take a quick uh10 minute break is that correct correct yep perfect so uh for all those who are on we’regoing to take a quick 10 minute break to just give everyone a time to use the restroom and stretchtheir legs for a bit but we will rejoin at 11 23 and we will have rick karlovsky give hispresentation on debris operations so at 11 23 we will be coming back to thepresentation so thank you everyone again i’m rick karlowski i’m the assistant chiefof ohio epa and our division of materials and waste management i’m going to be talking alittle bit about some actions that ohio epa can do for debris management and disastersituations and then we’re going to look at some quick overview of debris management sitesand how those are set up and and some of the issues involved with those so ohio epa actions fordebris management so what is ohio epa going to do well the ohio epa director has authority to exemptdisaster debris from disposal fees and this is pursuant to orc code and this is in the eventthat the governor declares a state of emergency and any kind of fee waiver can also it can includethe state disposal fees for the state share per ton and it can include the solid waste managementdistrict disposal fees and the generation fees i’m saying it can does it always know but theauthority exists that it can recently in 2019 we did do this for the dayton area to cover thedisposal of the tornado debris and we also did it up in mercer county around the same time andi’m going to explain a little bit more about that in a bit uh the next thing that we cando is we can increase a landfill amdwar if you’re unfamiliar with that term it’s theauthorized maximum daily waste receipt or how much trash debris can come into a landfill in aday that is limited by the permit for the landfill that ohio epa issues so in the event of a disasterand there’s more debris to come into the landfill the ohio epa can temporarily allow anincrease in the amount that can come in however the landfill must send a request toohio epa and what i want you to note here is per the rule that request has to be copied to thesolid waste management district and the applicable health department if an approved area so you guysknow that an mdor increase has been requested now ohio epa typically uh doesn’t givea whole lot of scrutiny on approving the the amdwar increase we nearly always thinkit’s justified on a temporary basis to do that to actually help the local community and thelandfill intake a greater amount of debris so as far as the fee waiver process there is a like i said the statute outlines whatthe director can do internally what we like to do after the governor issues an emergencydeclaration or even before that even happens ohio epa will start talking to the solid wastemanagement districts as soon as possible after the disaster hits to discuss this concept of a feewaiver and our director her stance as of this time follows our past director craig butler who wantedto always exempt the state portion of the fee but wanted to know how the local community andthe local organizations feel about waiving their portion of the fee as well simply because it canbe done in one document and one issued statement so our director will be looking for concurrenceof what the solid waste management district thinks and would want that preferably in writingand you’ll see why in a second as i talk about the fee waiver document if it is issued it comesin the form of directors final findings and orders and in the findings and orders itwill outline the regulatory authority and what happened what kind of disaster happenedand then it will say the director can exempt fees quite often it will say the local solidwaste management district has agreed to waive their portion of the fees as welltherefore the order is this and will waive the state and local fees for a certainduration of time typically it can go up to 90 days uh it can be requested for less timethan that but that would be in our it would be part of our core conversationsleading up to that point and then after that is issued landfills can log the disasterdebris quantity received on their daily logs so basically those are the two main regulatoryissues that dim one will take in a disaster and um just to let you know i’ll go back for asecond in the follow-up documents from today’s session in addition to the slides you will finduh we do have a couple of the actual fee waiver findings and orders that were issued in 2019and we have the um a letter from montgomery county solid waste management districtagreeing to waive their local fees as well and then we have an example of a mercer orsalina landfill up in mercer county where we did a uh amdwar increase for them tohandle some of the debris they had in 2019 so now i’m going to talk a littlebit about debris management sites what is it what kind of things are issued issuesand associated with it basically it’s a facility it’s a temporary store segregate or reduce debrisfor recycling and final disposal now what you’re seeing on the right hand side in the picture isnot necessarily a very good debris management site what you’re seeing is a pile of mixed debris thatlooks like a mess so what i’m going to be covering very shortly is how you can do a debris managementsite properly so it doesn’t quite look like this sometimes on the federal level if you takea federal training they may refer to it as a temporary debris storage andreduction site same thing so for a debris management site there’s alot of considerations that should appear hopefully in the planning stages planning stages you’re going to debate advantagesof it advantages of it you have some flexible uses you can do different things at the site youcan minimize what you’re taking to the landfill by either recycling some things or processingsome things and possibly useful products you can reduce the time for removal and disposalso when you have an event like we had in dayton in 2019 you had widespread debris all throughneighborhoods and as far as debris management was concerned one of the main issues was howquickly we can get these neighborhoods cleared and back to normal as much as possible so a debrismanagement site can give you that flexibility that you can sweep stuff out of the neighborhood fairlyquickly and get the citizens back to as normal operations as possible and again saving landfillspace helps you reduce disposal costs if you’re using some of the debris for recyclingdisadvantages it can be expensive expensive by meaning you’re going to typicallyhaul debris twice you’re going to haul it to the debris management site and then whatever’sleft from there is going to go to the landfill so you will run up costs it requires someplanning and possible permitting issues which i’ll get into in a minute you maysomething may look great as an area to have a degree management site but you’re not aware thatit could be a potential historic site or it could have some environmental issues there that makeit not a very good site to use and finally you should have some type of dedicated site managementthis means boots on the ground watching the place because if you do it correctly you’ll get theright debris there in the right places if you don’t man it correctly or man it at all you’regoing to find out you have a neighborhood dump site that quickly accumulates everything knownto man in one place and that could be a real mess so as part of the planning phase we’d likelocal ema offices and local communities to assess the need for a debris management siteand again it refers to what brock was detailing earlier about projected or estimatedamount of debris that means forecasting amount going directly to the landfill doyou have landfills in close proximity that you can take this stuff to we have someareas where landfills are quite a drive away is that feasible to have a debris managementsite in that in that case the location of debris also in the planning phases you can predictor forecast where the debris is likely to accumulate in the in the largest areas sowould you need something closer to where your debris area is likely to be that wouldeffectively manage it better for your citizens you’ll have to consider a mix of debris vegetativec d and household hazardous waste are just some examples of what mixed debris can be um you willsee in some of the disaster uh predictions and forecasting that different types of disastershave different types and quantities of debris a tornado is historically the big one that haseverything all kinds of debris and it’s all mixed up floods not so much you can segregatethe types of debris that you have and manage them a little bit easier and separate thempriority of debris removal like i said earlier there’s a lot of attention that comes outfirst to save lives provide health care provide shelter provide food and water debriskind of falls down on the list for a while and but sooner or later people are going to wanton debris cleaned up so is it easier to haul it to the landfill or is it easier to haul toa near closer debris management site and speed your neighborhood clean up there okay andalso the capability of your existing facilities if you don’t have anything in your area thatseemingly a good debris management site maybe this is not a viable option for you so all of this goesinto and we want it to go into the planning phase and when you create a debris management plan soyou can assess the need for a debris management site planning investigate evaluate prior to thedisaster maintain current lists of potential sites we like to see those in plans ema likes to seethose in plans but as brock alluded to over time your debris management site wherever you pickedcould become the next strip mall it could become the next housing development it could becomesomething else where it’s not available anymore as a potential debris management site sothe update uh of the debris plan is vital to understanding whether you can still usea designated debris management site or not and then depending on the magnitude of thedisaster when it happens you may not even need the the planned site let’s just say you had a mildice storm and you had a bunch of tree limbs down and that was it that could could bemanaged easily via curbside pickup or something like that where you wouldn’t needto even activate the debris management site selecting a debris management site should involvea team of people and you’ll see why in a second but there’s appropriate local agencies emais going to be heavily involved in this however other agencies ohio epa the healthdepartment public works organizations and so forth can all contribute to helping thelocal area select debris management sites um we’d like it to be interdisciplinary whichmeans there’s some waste handling people or some public works people there’s some possibly somepolitical people there could be some people that involved in public relationsfor mayor’s offices and so forth to be able to communicate someof these needs when the need is known also no one wants a debris management sitenext to their house or next to their residents um it might be it might look good on a map butif there’s some kind there’s no kind of local communication about selecting a possible siteyou could have a bunch of local residents very very upset when the time comes there’sconservation and environmental groups and i’ll outline those in a second but youreally don’t want to pick a sensitive area to try and put a degree management site that thenyou’re in for likely more environmental problems and lastly obviously you don’twant to pick something like a historic cemetery or an indian burial ground orsomething like that as a as a debris management site um you could run into problems there and someof these are not only on the local level of these concerns i’m mentioning here these come downfrom the the fema protocols and the guidelines of what they would like the local communitiesto consider in degree management site selection another big thing this is for the local umis ownership of the property is it private or is it public if it is private there are there’sa lot more liability involved there could be leases involved there could be contracts that haveto be signed to assess the property beforehand and then afterwards so nobody wants theirprivate property ruined by giant piles of debris um they want their land the way it wasbefore so um in public land there’s there’s different considerations and liabilitiesthere public land is what we usually encourage for a debris management site is the site andlocation is it big enough for the planned use brock outlined some degree forecasting that’lltell you how much debris you can expect from a let’s say a series of tornadoes or anef4 tornado or a flood of a certain degree or or some other magnitude of disaster you mightneed tube management sites you might need three again you don’t want it in a sensitive area eitherhistorically or environmental sensitive area there could be neighbors concerns with dust noiseand traffic you might be rolling trucks through their neighborhood because that’s the only wayin and out that may not be a great idea for your mayor and you know ongoing public relations withyour citizens it should have good ingress and egress so if you um your department transportationor your county engineer can help you determine if the roads can take uh the truck traffic theweight of the trucks and the amount of trucks going in and out of the site so as you can seethere’s a lot of different concerns that can come up in selecting a degree management sitewe want you as epa we’re on the forefront of environmental protection so we would advocateyou don’t try to put one in a wetland area we don’t want to to destroy ahabitat for rare animals and plants we want to avoid placing these things on topor next to uh well fields for drinking water or reservoirs used for drinking water or surfacewater sources of drinking water we don’t want them over a sole source aquifer there are sensitiveareas in the state for that and you’ll inevitably find that there are certain areas designated thatare not good for debris storage and processing sensitive populations another thing it’s notonly homes that are primary concern you have schools hospitals you have nursing homes nearbyyou have churches nearby all of those things may not bode well with your local community andyour local officials on on where you’re selecting a debris management site if it’s next to oneof those sensitive populations or buildings let me speak a little bit about benefitsof recycling because this does come up in in debris management i think most of you onthe solid waste management district side can recognize the inverted pyramid herethis is basically the the uscpa debris management hierarchy um you want sourcereduction and reuse a lot then recycling then energy recovery and the last thingleast preferred is treatment and disposal and we all been preaching this together for yearsyou can serve resources by doing this you can serve landfill space you can reduce disposal costsand for pr recycling is good for public relations now sometimes these could be harder cells whenpeople want the debris moved and disposed of now and they don’t want to take what’s typicallyextra time to recycle and process debris um to to recover some of it so those kindof considerations will always come into play uh during disaster response and debris management site selection you can do recyclingactivities at a debris management site however your debris management plan and the site planshould account for the ability to do recycling operations and that’s typically do you have theresources locally to do that and you can establish processes for reducing and hauling okay you couldhave local standby contracts for things like very commonly uh wood chipping or wood woodydebris reduction there’s a lot of companies that do that there’s machinery out there that does thatcan you show on a plan at your degree management site that you’ll have an area for let’s saywoody debris chipping and reduction and you plan your debris management site to accommodaterecycling activities so we all know and you all know the key to recycling is separation youdon’t want mixing up all of your stuff together that greatly reduces the chances of recyclingso a debris management site should have some design and protocols for separation permits for a debris management site again on theepa side i can speak to some general things that can come into play if you are disturbingover an acre of of land um and you are um you know either grading it or you’re you’resmoothing it out or something um you could have a construction stormwater general permit neededif it’s an acre or more those come those permits are very common um they’re easy to get uh for themost part epa can help you do one of those quickly um if you are going to be doing uh any type ofbrush chipping any tub grinders for woody debris any concrete crushing or sizing equipmentscreening conveyors you might have diesel generators at your debris management site youwill always have some type of dust control needed likely for trucks coming in and out all thoseare air pollution issues which you may need permits for you work through your local districtoffice and your air pollution agency to get those issues addressed local authorizations youcould have a zoning problem or you could have a a road use problem or somethinglike that that you have to work out noting those issues in advance will help you smooth the transition into using adebris management site successfully site evaluation what i can tell youabout this is fema expects you to return the property as you found it so think of thecamping adage you leave it as you found it so they want you to determine the conditions beforethe disaster what the land condition is like what the area is like and then after you’re done usingthe site you return it to the original condition this is especially important if youhappen to locate one on private property this is a over complicated most complex probablytype of debris management site you could have not all debris management sites need this butwhat i just wanted to show you here is just a couple of things this is a very largesite over here this is a hundred acres very large okay most sites probably won’t bethis but it has a couple of elements i just wanted to point out here’s a main entrance herethere’s a there’s a place to accumulate trucks a line of trucks coming in there’s an observationtower here to look into a truck to see what it is and direct the truck to the proper place here’sa household hazardous waste drop off for citizens here’s some another zone for recycling areasthis is a large area here for vegetative debris drop off which is adjacent to a tub grinder whichis going to basically mulch it down into a pile this over here is a dumping areafor debris handling sorting so this would be a mixed dump area for peopleand as you can see the entrance is this way you swing around the pile and you go out thisway so you don’t have trucks passing each other um you would likely have large dump trucks uhintermixed with citizen pickup trucks and cars so you don’t want to you want to have goodtraffic control for a site that’s this big um your site is likely to be less thanthis maybe have a couple of things like a a mixed debris area maybe a household hazardouswaste drop off and maybe some vegetative stuff so this is just a simple diagram from the femacurriculum that does show uh some of the facets that a debris managementsite can have and how it’s set up there’s typically buffer zones so like i saidyou don’t want a lot of storm water runoff on your debris piles carrying stuff off-site ontonearby properties and or streams typically you can construct some makeshift containers containmentberms you can use jersey wall concrete pieces you can use different things if you’regoing to be recycling what’s essential is you segregate materials and you have somekind of reduction method on site to do that if you do intake things like householdhazardous waste fuel containers things like that you should have a designated area forthat if it’s a citizen drop-off place you will need some type of site staffing sosomebody has to direct people where to go you have to have operating hours open and closed uh there has to be adequate signage so peoplecan understand where to go and where to put stuff and brock is going to be talking about somemonitoring later on and why that’s important okay and monitoring site for environmentalcompliance epa might be out there the health department may be out there we will respond tocomplaints if we get them uh any spilled fuel or or things of that nature spilled should becleaned up immediately to avoid further impacts you can document activity in photos and notes formonitoring brock will talk about that a little bit more again up-to-date maps of where things canbe laid out in your degree management plan is essential and some things are going to changeas you go along um you could have a site that turns into nothing but vegetative debris andyou can easily document that and going forward site cleanup enclosure when you’re done ensure theoperations are complete or you remove all debris you conduct any environmental samplingif you have to to demonstrate there’s returning the state back to its baseline state if it’s private property you have to obtainwritten concurrence of the site owner that restoration is complete and finallyterminate any lease if you had to employ that some pictures uh here’s one uh it wasa debris management site out in trotwood in the 2019 tornadoes you can see over here uh there’ssome roll-off boxes here that people can segregate put stuff this is going to the landfill uh thisis some vegetated debris that was staged here for uh chipping later on uh and and reuse as mulchit was a city-owned property and it was a it was a fairly good site to do that and there was somepeople there on site directing people making sure that it didn’t become a giant dump site this one’sa little dated but i like this picture because it’s a small town the village of manchesterdown in adams county they had a flood in 97. it looks like in this case they had an empty lotor something right there in the neighborhood so it was very convenient for the citizens to transporttheir own uh flood debris there at this site and it looks like there’s a loader there uh probablya dump truck getting loaded going to the landfill there was probably uh some type ofrecycling going on here but it was public property it was monitored and staffed ithad a fence around it and again it was convenient um it was the size that they needed um and itseemed to operate very well for their their uses this one um not a great exampleuh this is basically a lot of uh vegetative debris and and other thingsthere’s there’s not much organization to it i think the local fire marshal hadsome fire hazard concerns with it and this wasn’t the the best example of asite that tried to do just vegetative debris um solid waste management districts may recognizethis this was a a picture from fema of a debris management site that had an actualhousehold hazardous waste station set up similar to some of your community events it functioned thesame way citizens understood what to do they were familiar with that but it was one added featurethat they had put in their degree management site grinding and shipping equipment youmight be familiar with tub grinders there’s a couple pictures of normalwood chippers here on the left and then there’s a tub grinder on the rightthese were employed in the dayton cleanup and they worked very well because the oneon the right was at the county engineers facility which did have a lot of room they didhave a tub grinder there and they used it as a drop-off site for vegetated debris and they groundup uh the debris and had um commercial composting companies come in and load it so it worked verywell some other lessons of dayton tornadoes they needed debris management sites they ended upusing around four they really weren’t on the plan um they weren’t designated they weredone on the fly uh they did find some good locations but it did delay some of thedebris movement um in the first couple of weeks the site security varied like i said uh some ofthem were man worked very well some of them were manned for a while uh then they got neglectedand then it started to turn into a neighborhood drop off of everything and anything and you don’twant that to happen um they had some segregated sites for woody debris only that seemed to workvery well with proper signage and some mutual aid that were hauling just woody debris it’svery easy to segregate and they had grinders and outlets available in the in the community thatsprang into action and did process that debris there was an uh asbestos issue we had with someair regulations about damaged structures and evaluating them for asbestos we had to seek someextra guidance on that we also had some delay in getting debris estimate volumes and types brocktold you how important that was to have that but ema tries to work on the ground and getdebris volumes and types known as soon as possible and brock is going to be talking about somethird party debris management site monitors that were employed uh in the dayton cleanupso that’s what i have as a quick overview of debris management sites and a coupleother administrative actions ohio epa does uh kevin i think we got a few minutes forsome questions perfect thank you rick i really appreciate it we did have a couple of questionssome were answered in the chat but i just want to give anyone who has called in or does nothave access to the chat the opportunity to hear those answers so for site selection is there apreference between public and private land uh public is preferred preferred um just becauseof ownership liability things like that perfect thank you and then the second question that wereceived are there any state or federal funds to assist in returning the property back to itsoriginal state no none that i’m aware of i can i can speak to that rick um fema will actually fundthe cost to restore the site the debris management sites to its pre-disaster conditions they lookat it as you know a debris cost just like your those those folks that are out there collectingso making it all the more important to document the pre-disaster or pre-use conditions okay thankyou brock i wasn’t sure about fema reimbursement for that on the state level there is noneso right okay brock thank you um a question kind of going along with that um are there anyfinancial incentives for recycling of debris um processing and additional hauling may leadto recycling adding to costs is the comment i can take this one toorick if you don’t mind sure the uh so what we’ll discuss after our break hereis um the fema reimbursement and yes there is a financial incentive to um the the recyclingof the debris of there’s there’s currently a pilot program out there that will allow forthe reimbursement or for the um jurisdiction to retain those recycling revenues anduse towards the non-federal share perfect thank you brock and then the finalquestion but we got a couple more that just popped in but an additional question received arethere any um or i apologize in a disaster does it matter if the hazardous materials collectedare commercial or household generated at a particular site do the rules we operateunder change when a disaster is declared the rules we operate do not change howeverthe practical uh the practical impact is in everybody’s face you can’t really separatestuff when it’s all mixed up and you can’t really determine whether it’s from commercialor household so there are programs that try to assess the debris to see if there’s obviouscommercial hazardous waste in there that are recognized and can separate but therethere is no exemption across the board for a hazardous waste okay and then we did receive one final questionbefore we go on to our lunch break um will ohio epa waive the fees if the solid waste managementdistrict does not do both need to waive the fees um ohio epa basically will waive the state feeslike i said it is the director’s decision to waive the solid waste district fees whether thesolid waste district fees wants to or not um that’s why we like to talk toyou very very early in the process and hopefully get your concurrence and wecan do it all in one shot perfect thank you rick um and then i did see ann i know you hadyour hand up did you want to ask a question the one thing i wanted to talk about was inclark county we initially had a goal to have 21 potential degree management sites thatwas the number of local jurisdictions villages cities townships and while it wasoptimal for each of those to maybe have the capability to be independent and for the sitesto be publicly owned um it became obvious that several jurisdictions had very were very smallor had very little public property so they didn’t really have a good site for a degree managementsite so we moved to a plan that encouraged shared debris management sites between townshipsand the villages within their boundaries and a consideration of public-private partnershipsbecause a couple of our very small jurisdictions had next to them local businesses that had largeparking lots parking lots with fences so i know that you you kind of discourage that public uhtemporary degree storage site but they were able to come up with formal agreements to allow thesome of those very large areas for a tdsr and hopefully that’ll work out if we really need itgood good i’m glad to hear that it’s just it’s one more thing you have to uh consider and if youcan get those agreements locally that that’s good awesome thanks for sharing anne um rick i didnot have any additional questions come through the chat or anything through emails so um i don’tknow if you had anything else you wanted to add no i don’t think so i think we’ll reconveneat 1 30 and we’ll go through some more um things okay perfect thank you yeah so umeveryone we will reconvene at 1 30 today you’ll use the same link that you usedthroughout the presentation this morning however in order to receive any rs credits and yourcertificate of completion i just sent out through the chat a link to the morning survey so if youcould please fill that out that’d be fantastic there will also be an afternoon survey as welljust to verify attendance throughout the entire workshop again if you do not have access tochat or if you cannot find the chat feature please email me or jeff monovin and we can sendyou the link to that but with that being said thank you for all of our presenters this morningand we look forward to seeing everyone this afternoon at 1 30.Thank you alrighty uh goodafternoon thanks for coming back and joining us again uh post lunch here and those thatare just joining my name is brock metzger i’m with the ohio emergency management agency i’min the disaster recovery branch and i oversee the public assistance program in the state of ohio souh you’re joining us at the time of our discussion where we are going to talk the fema publicassistance program and the eligibility criteria as it relates to disaster debris andthe costs and activities associated with that so general debris eligibility criteria uhthis is strictly from fema policy uh so the debris activity must eliminate an immediatethreat to life public health and safety it must eliminate an immediate threat of significantdamage to improved public or private property ensure economic recovery at the affectedcommunity to the benefit of the community at large so um you know i will we’ll talk morethat last bullet really speaks to private property debris removal which we’llget into uh much more detail on that but the second bullet speaks to any any debris that isas a result of the disaster that poses a hazard to other facilities so an example of this wouldbe a debris uh disaster debris and a stream and that debris jam is now impacting say a bridgeor bridge abutments so on and so forth those are some examples for that uh and then the firststatement’s pretty self-explanatory and the you know eliminate the immediatethreat to life public health and safety so fema defines eligibility underthe fema public assistance program as building blocks the first building block is thebottom building pillar you have to be an eligible applicant the eligible applicant then has to ownand operate an eligible facility and then the work uh must be a result of the declared disasterand the cost to do the work must be reasonable we’ll jump into this a little bit more sofor an applicant to be eligible for fema public assistance they must be a state or localgovernment agencies uh federally recognized tribal governments certain private nonprofit entities andcertain other entities form for a public purpose so um your your individuals and homeowners arenot going to be eligible applicants under the fema public assistance program there’s there’sa big there’s um we get a lot of questions on that so i’d like to hit the highs on that um thethe public assistance program provides disaster assistance to uh you know the governmentalagencies and private non-profit entities and then our disaster survivors uh such as those uhindividuals with damaged homes and so on and so forth would apply or be eligible applicants underfema’s individual assistance program so there’s two separate programs each of them have theirown caveats and own um participants or applicants so uh for as i mentioned the facilityto be eligible our next building block under the program is it must be the legalresponsibility of the eligible applicant so if we have a local government thatwas impacted by a debris generating event they then would have the legal responsibilityor be that eligible applicant to fema for the debris clearance from the road rightaways in any of their public uh facilities and the facility must be in active use at the timeof the disaster so um what that means is you know that road must have been open or if if youhave a public building that is a newly uh being built and it’s in the middle of a constructionuh there there could be stipulations on debris removal from that facility as opposed to an openroadway with downed trees and so on and so forth so examples of eligible facilities improvepublic property so roads bridges parks and etc the example i gave earlier today of theport in the city of marietta and the debris from there that was an improved publicproperty therefore they were able to claim their debris cost for that location it’s gotto be in the public right-of-way as i’ve mentioned i will talk private property debris removal but ingeneral fema’s public assistance program is going to provide funding for the removal of debrisfrom a public right-of-way and certain private non-profit facilities so those certain privatenonprofit facilities are more restrictive than not um really these um private non-profit facilitiesit comes down to when determining eligibility of that facility it comes down to theservices provided within that facility and then if the services are deemed eligible foremergency work under fema’s public assistance program then they would uh be eligible fordebris removal so an example of a private non-profit facility with eligibility would beyour uh hospitals private nonprofit hospitals ineligible facilities are an applicant’sunimproved property or undeveloped land so if the city owns uh a field that sits behindthe the school and there’s no damage or if there there’s a bunch of debris left in the fieldum and it was just put there by the disaster removal of uh debris from that undevelopedland would not be eligible for fema reimbursement facilities outside of thedesignated disaster area so when we get a presidential disaster declaration we requestcounties to be declared under that declaration so if uh it’s not it’s few and far between but thereare jurisdictions within our state that um have jurisdiction within two counties so um thosejurisdictions would um have to be cognizant of the debris activities if if one countygets declared and the other does not uh then they would have to be cognizant of the debriswork that was done in the declared county and submit that to fema as opposed to thedebris work outside of the declared county federal property or facilities that fallunder the authority of another federal agency so this is fema is not going to fund uh basicallywhat that means is if it’s under the authority of another federal agency then fema doesn’t viewit to be the applicant’s legal responsibility to remove the damage or to remove the debris becauseit’s another federal agency’s responsibility the exception to this rule is debris managementactivities performed along federal aid highways are eligible for reimbursement underfema’s public assistance program so permanent work work to restore those damagedroadways uh that are declared uh or um discerned as federal aid routes are not eligible sothat that’s the permanent work to restore the damaged roadway but debris removal on thosefederal aid routes is eligible for reimbursement uh private uh private property debris removal soeligibility criteria so it must be in that public interest that’s that goes back to that thirdbullet that i pointed out on our second slide of this uh unit and um so for that to be happenuh it has to go through a pre-approval process every single property that you anticipatehaving private property debris removal has to go through this process and it has to bepre-approved by fema before you can do the work um now that’s not to say you couldn’t do itwithout fema reimbursement but if you want fema to reimburse the cost for that work ithas to go through this pre-approval process so it’s got to be a public interest determinationso uh it must be considered like a nuisance or a some sort of there’s um i’m sure there’s somebuilding code officials on on in our meeting that are rolling their eyes but um you must make thedetermination that it’s it’s a nuisance property um and you have to document documentationof legal responsibility so you would have to essentially um um the words escaping me but uh youyou’d have to deem that you know this property is now a nuisance and the city is you know legallyresponsible to to clear that nuisance and the authorization by illegally authorized officialso um that’s a lot of authorizations and in one bullet but uh your your local official must makethat uh determination and provide in writing their justification and uh indemnification is is anotheruh step so you must indemnify that property and then giving you the legal responsibilitydo we have an open mic i thought i heard myself they took him to safety wherehe was reunited with the albums despite you got it all right um duplicationof benefits so another consideration with private property debris removal is insuranceproceeds so if that homeowner received insurance proceeds for the clearance of the debris fromtheir property then fema would consider that a duplication of benefit and not be able to providefunding for those activities the insurance covered some more uh documentation requirements so thelocal jurisdiction must get a right to of entry document to go on to the property and do the workthe site location description and photos must be presented to fema through that pre-approvalprocess a site assessment establishing eligible scope of work so you would need to go out therewith uh folks that are familiar with the work that’s going to need to be done and documentand put in writing to fema the the work that you anticipate having to be done so knockingdown uh a single story home uh or one of the two walls that are still standing so on and so forthdeveloping that scope of work to provide the fema uh the applicable insurance policy so if they’reagain if there is any insurance policies that were covering that property at the time of the lossthen fema would like to see or requires to see the insurance policy in an environmental andhistoric review so this uh really comes up more often than not uh rick kind of alludedto it with the asbestos type um issues when when doing those um determinations uh related toasbestos uh the historical uh fema views anything that is 45 years or older to potentiallyhave historical value therefore may require special consultation with the state historicpreservation officer uh debris removal work completed so you would need uh if you had doneany work uh within the area to help show fema that um this isn’t you know to help tie the privateproperty work to the disaster itself fema likes to see the debris work that was completed surroundingthe area so they can better determine that um yes this in fact was debrisgenerated by the declared disaster eligible work uh so for private propertywork uh the large piles of debris in living recreational or working areas debrisobstructing primary ingress and egress routes hazardous trees and limbs which fema has their ownstipulations for as well disaster damage interior and exterior exterior materials so those are someof the eligible items of work under the program as it relates to private property some ofthe ineligible work as it relates to private property is debris from vacant lots unimprovedproperty same stipulation with the public property debris on agricultural land is ineligibleconcrete slabs are foundations on grade fema will not pay for the removal of those reconstructiondebris so if a house was being reconstructed or built then fema will not pay to clean that debrisfrom that private property uh debris and materials unrelated to the disaster so that goes back to thethe point i was just making with the debris work documenting the debris work done within thearea to tie it to the disaster um what fema has to do is cross checkand make sure they are not paying for um un disaster related cost so damagedswimming pools and basements are ineligible and debris removal from commercialproperty is ineligible as well so that talks to the facilities uh we haveestablished eligible applicant we’ve established eligible facilities um and now we’re going totalk about work eligibility as it relates to public uh property debris removal so the publicproperty debris removal must be required as a result of the declared incident located withinthat designated disaster area and it must be that legal responsibility of the eligible applicantum so if you own or operate that facility and you regularly maintain that facility then thatwork uh would be deemed your legal responsibility uh this came up a couple times in florida wheni was down there for um after hurricane irma and uh so we get the question more often than notthat with leased facilities so sometimes a city owns a property and leases it to um like a schoolor so on and so forth uh when it comes down to questions related to leased property um whetherit be owned by the public or leased by the public then it honestly comes down to those individuallease agreements and who’s who’s responsible for maintaining the facility in that leasewithin that lease uh special considerations for work uh so that public interest requirementyou know mains there so we um you know it’s pretty obvious that it’s in the public interestto clear the debris from our roadways so that the traveling public can get to and fromuh but you know having that determination and is is um something fema would like you guys toconsider damage due to negligence is ineligible so if you have uh debris work that is ongoing and youyou’ve created additional damage to that facility uh that damage would not be eligible forassistance um damage as a result of just uh extensive use of that facility so i’m i’m speakingto a road here so if you have you know backhoes and dump trucks rolling through a neighborhoodthat’s not that in that roadway is not necessarily designed to handle that type ofequipment that type of damage could potentially be eligible for reimbursement under fema’s programuh but damage due to negligence so if you you back your dump truck into a fire hydrant and the firehydrant breaks well that damn that’s damage due to negligence and vemma wouldn’t pay for that butif you have if you’re driving a trackhoe down a residential road and you tear up the road doingso that type of damage may be considered eligible which brings up the next point here isnormal maintenance items that existed prior to the disaster are ineligible so this iseven this is super critical on this program and something fema’s really honed in on overthe last couple of months or the last couple of years rather i’m sorry but these thisnormal maintenance um documenting your your activities uh as you maintain your facilities iscritical on day in and day out so i’ve i i try to get folks on board with this before a disasterhappens because when a disaster happens and having that documentation to be able to prove tofema that that facility was maintained is critical because that will help discernsome of the disaster caused damages versus the pre-existing damages so as youcan imagine the example i was using of driving a tractor down a residential road uh and andcreating potholes and excess potholes and so on and so forth that could you know a month or soat when fema is out taking a look of that look at look i’m sorry after a month of that and then um amonth goes by or two months goes by and fema comes out to to quantify your damage and see your damageand that could just look like normal potholes but without documentation to show that those potholesdidn’t exist prior to that uh work being done uh then fema is more often than not going to leadto the assumption that it was pre-disaster damages that’s just the reality of of thethe program as it currently exists so eligible debris work clearance from theroadways collection from your public right-of-ways reduction and recycling is eligible disposal isobviously eligible environmental monitoring is eligible so if you have to hire environmentalmonitoring services for your debris management sites that would be an eligible expense debrismonitoring uh costs are eligible and uh required uh debris monitor monitoring your your debriscontractors is is required on fema’s end um other debris related activities so uh we talkedabout this a couple examples came up earlier today uh the the one that i’m referring back to isthe returning the site to its pre-disaster uh conditions so if you set up a debris managementsite document its pre-disaster condition so whenever you’re done using it as a debrismanagement site fema can you can establish the baseline with fema and then the cost to restoreit back to that baseline would be eligible roads and right-of-ways something i’ve mentionedquite a bit disaster-related debris is generally eligible from eurozone right-of-ways mustbe closely managed by applicant and have established limits so you have to stay withinyour your road right or your road right of way when doing this type of work and it must beseparated from your normal garbage pickup and other ineligible debris removalso fema is not going to pay for the the removal of debris from acommercial site they’re not going to pay for your normal garbage uh weeklypickups or however often you pick up your constituent garbage those are twoexpenses that fema is not going to pay for vegetative debris on public property and right ofways and then we’re going to talk the hazardous trees hazardous limbs and hazardous stumps this isa sticking point with fema so making people aware of this prior to doing the work is as crucialbecause we need to be able to document that each of these are meeting the eligibility requirementsso for a hazardous tree removal uh cost to be considered eligible and must meet the followingcriteria the condition was caused by the disaster it has to present an immediate threat and thathazardous tree measures six inches or greater in diameter at four and a half feet above groundlevel so documenting if if you have run into this type of situation being able to document thatand met these requirements is critical in getting that cost reimbursed additionally mustmeet one of the more the following criteria more than 50 or more of the crown is damagedor destroyed uh it has a split trunk or broken branches exposing the heartwood hasfallen we’re uprooted in a public use area leaning at an angle of greater than 30 degreesand shows evidence of ground disturbance so again document document document um that’sthat’s critical uh another thing that uh lesson learned from for hazardous trees uh if if youhave um if you have say a park that you have um these beautiful trees in and the thetornado came through and knocked the trees down uh the the clearing of that tree would beeligible uh because it would meet these criterias and but the replacement of that tree would not beor or the placement of that same exact tree would not be eligible uh we’ve we’ve had that instancecome up uh in the past where the applicant uh said you know that we thought we could justput the tree back up in place and kind of stake it down into the ground um and they wantedfema to pay for that cost unfortunately that’s not eligible it’s a good activity uh to do butit’s just not eligible for fema reimbursement hazardous limbs must be located on an improvedpublic property so it has to be hanging over your sidewalk hanging over a road uh hangingin a park so on and so forth uh len must be greater than two inches in diameter at the pointof break uh the limb must still be hanging in tree and threatening a public use area so as you cantell that there’s some pretty strict guidelines in regards to eligibility here um so beingable to document this type of work is critical okay hazardous stumps uh the stump must have50 or more of the root ball exposed must be greater than 24 inches in diameter measured24 inches above the ground must be on improved public property or a public right-of-way and itmust pose an immediate threat so being able to document that it’s that it meets these criteriais again critical so that’s a work eligibility under the building block blocks now we’re goingto move to cost eligibility our final building block under the program so cost must be reasonableand necessary to accomplish the eligible work the applicant must comply with all applicable localstate and federal procurement requirements so i i alluded to this early on and we’ll talk much morein depth uh regarding procurement and contracting uh but having um it’s you just because a disasterhappened doesn’t ease those requirements when it comes to federal procurement and stateprocurement local procurement so on and so forth and the cost must be reducedby all applicable credits so we mentioned insurance from pro public and privateproperty so if insurance proceeds for claim or received for debris clearance then those mustbe deducted from your cost to submission to fema recycling revenue is listed here becauseas it currently stands under fema’s policy uh uh recycling revenue is noteligible however they have a pilot program that i i don’t know how long is going to bein existence it’s been around for five or six years now uh so i’m not sure how how much longerit’ll stay around or fema will revert their their policy to account for that pilot program but thatpilot program would allow for the reimbursement or the the retaining of the recycling revenue asopposed to fema’s policy outside of that pilot program which restricts you from uh you have toreduce the recycling revenue from your your cost so potential sources of cost so think uh areasto look when it comes to cost being incurred well would be the the folks thatare doing the work right so the people that can do the work are yourforce account resources so that’s your own uh jurisdictions you know public worksdepartment uh roads department so on and so forth um mutual aid is another avenue andcontracts is another avenue as well uh so for for forced account resources laborlimited to overtime hours only again as this program is not complicated enough that thatpilot program exists still that same one that allows you to retain the recyclingrevenue in that pilot program it also allows for reimbursement of regulartime labor for debris removal activities equipment force account equipment so the useof your jurisdiction’s equipment fema has established hourly rates for almostevery piece of equipment you can imagine from a fire truck to a car to abroom a chainsaw so on and so forth materials utilized so there’s oftentimes we don’tsee a lot of materials associated with debris removal activities but i would imagine if you’resetting up a debris management site there will be materials needed to set that site up whether it bea gravel to to place the ingress the egress routes and and other costs that are needed to dothat work um at the debris management sites leased purchased equipment and supplies that isalso eligible for uh forced account resources as i’ve been uh mentioningthis pilot program so it’s fema calls it an alternative procedurefor debris removal uh aka pilot program again that allows for the retention of recyclingrevenues reimbursement of the straight time or regular time labor and that’s where theincreased cost share for fema accepted debris management plans come into pay play thatincrease cost share can be up to 10 percent mutual aid in contracts so the uh the costof debris related work performed through a mutual aid agreement or contracts betweenjurisdictions uh may be eligible the receiving entity still responsible for non-federalcost shares so i mentioned fema typically on typical disasters they fund 75 percent of eligiblecost the remaining non-federal 25 share would be the eligible applicant’s responsibilitysometimes the state contributes towards that 25 whether it be the full 25 or 12 and a half uhso just keep that in the back of your mind uh but um the receiving entity so the jurisdictionwhere the the work is being done is the eligible applicant um for to fema for those costs so if uhlocality a is providing resources to locality b locality b would be the eligible applicant tofema um for under mutual aid and contracted work regular time and overtime labor iseligible no stipulation applied to that so everybody’s favorite part procurement andcontracting uh you must like i mentioned earlier you must follow all local state and federalprocurement requirements a list of uh some of the state local requirements is included in thepublic assistance handbook at our ema webpage so ama.ohio.gov ema branches disaster recovery lefthand side you’ll see the public assistance tab which will give you our public assistance handbookfederal procurement rules can be found uh at the code of federal uh regulations right there to cfr200.317 through 326.Uh and then we’re going to talk briefly on types of allowable contracts underfema so an allowable contracts are lump sums unit price cost plus a fixed fee and time and materialcontracts with one caveat being placed on time and material contracts and that is they shouldonly be utilized if no other type of contract is suitable and must include a do not exceedclause there is a heavy administrative burden with these contracts so those time andmaterial contracts are those where the contractors are telling you we will provide youthis many laborers for this much an hour and um we will provide you the equipment for thismuch and this so on and so forth the documentation for the that contractor’s labor mustbe submitted to fema which is why it’s a heavily administrative burden becauseyou’re not it you’re you’re having to get all of the contractors documents in regards totheir actual labor sheets and so on and so forth types of unallowable contracts under the publicassistance program are cost plus the percentage of cost contracts um that’s ineligible because uhfee there’s there’s nothing keeping the contractor in line uh if if they’re basing their pay uhoff of the cost it takes for them to do the work fema looks at that uh as um creating issues withcost reasonableness and percentage of construction costs same thing um and this includes any markupsso it’s there’s there’s nothing keeping fema looks at those types of contracts as unallowablecontracts for reimbursement federally and you cannot use the barred contractors you can checkthose two websites listed down there to see if those contractors are debarred or notthat’s just an extra step to throw your way all contracts must have the following supportdocumentation included so a cost or price analysis so um depending on the levels of umprocurement your so in the state the state of ohio procurement uh anything that any contract for50 000 or more requires the seal bid process to be followed unless there’s some other stipulationscreated uh through emergency or accidency um but and so having that seal bid process andthe documentation so show here’s our cost or price analysis on the the quotes or bids we’ve receiveda history of procurement so as i said time and time again document document document if youspeak to a contractor you talk to a contractor you solicit a contractor documenting those activitiesis critical um because it will help you show your due diligence and on executing the properprocurement uh and you have to be able to show full and open competition you can’t you knowshow favoritism or anything along those lines and source documentation particularly with time andmaterial type contracts so as i mentioned the the contractors um laborers sheets and equipment usagelogs all of those types of things would have to be submitted to fema under a time and materialcontract the davis bacon act is not required so the davis base can act as the federal prevailingwage so you do not have fema under the fema public assistance program you do not have to followthe federal prevailing wage unless there is something else locally that requires youto follow the thorough prevailing wage allowable procurement methods i briefly spoketo one and that would be that being that the seal bids um the micro purchase uh these arefederal dollar amounts you’re seeing up here uh the states are our dollar amount are morerestrictive and you have to follow whichever one’s most restrictive so we would be following thestates and the states um procurement methods and their dollars associated i believe it’s um 3 000or 5 000 for a micro purchase at the state level and for small purchase is is under the 50 000at the state level um so anything over the 50 000 would require the seal bid process to befollowed uh non-com non-competitive proposals uh okay it is limited that those non-competitiveproposals would would speak to the um uh the emergency and agency circumstances so wehave this you know extreme emergency going on you have a contractor there locallyor you have a contractor in mind you call that contractor and say comedo this work an example of this was say a flooding event happens and your elevatorsare flooded and you have somebody stuck in the elevator and you need that elevator company tocome out and repair that elevator to get that individual out so that would be an emergency andagency circumstances um what i don’t do is i’m not an attorney by any means so i i don’t fieldquestions as it relates to is this an emergency or is this an exigency um again i’m not an attorneyand nor do i intend to be uh so i would just uh if if you have questions as it relates to emergencyand exergency circumstances and how they meet if they meet the federal prevailing or federalrequirements i would talk with your legal counsel so here’s some resources uhwhen it comes to procurement uh not every not every time or every day are wedealing with federal procurement regulations and and unfortunately fema requires youto uh follow the federal procurement uh regulations even though you you you don’t knowyou’re gonna be receiving this federal grant so these declarations and fema public assistanceprogram offerings happen a lot of times you know a month or more removed from the disasterbut as you are working through that disaster if you cannot show um that you followed federalprocurement regulations and an emergency or net agency didn’t exist then a lot of times thosetypes of costs or contracts are not eligible so fema’s public assistance program and policyguide is a good place to look um that’s kind of the the overarching guidance document for the thepublic assistance program uh the code of federal regulations uh section there listed at 200 317through 326.The small business administration is another area to look they um they’ll helpyou do some searches to find small businesses uh in the fema’s procurement disaster assistanceteam this is new ish uh fema created uh fema uh had recognized about four years agothat there is a systemic problem with this um federal procurement um regulations nowbeing followed under the program so they created this procurement disaster assistanceteam we’ve actually had them come out through a few of our federally declared disastersand give presentations to our applicants following uh the presidential disaster declaration but umthey have a a web page where you can go and get all of the federal procurement uh contract clausesand so on and so forth and they strictly um i’ve i’ve heard them say that this so thisdisaster assistance team is fema’s attorneys that are sit come together and they they providethese resources for our applicants so um really that’s that’s a really good resources whenit comes really good resource when it comes to fema’s uh public assistance uh program andmaking sure you’re following the procurement uh federal procurement uh laws andregulations you you are required to with all of that uh there’s someobviously you know as we talked there’s scaling a variable or scalingof of activities so you can have a debris management site you cannot havea debris management site you can have jurisdiction-wide debris management activitiesyou can have a single neighborhood with um the where you’re doing work as opposed tothroughout your entire jurisdiction so there’s lots of different variables that affect costum so the types and quantities and locations so if you have a lot of debris uh going backto the example of the debris in the stream impacting your bridge abutment well that typeof debris removal is probably going to cost a little bit more than removing debris from that’slaying in your roadway so having those types of variables in mind and being able to documentthose to help show cost reasonableness to fema is um definitely encouraged uh hauling distancesand conditions so if you have to you uh haul and um if if you have to you know take your yourtruckloads of debris to farther locations that’s not only going to take more gas and it’s goingto take more time as well so you know that truck driver may as opposed to making a 30 minute roundtrip now they have to make a two-hour round trip and they’re gonna get maybe four or five loads ina day as opposed to the 30-minute round trip where they can get you know double or more you knowlots more than that in a day so um those type so if you’re having the hall further you’ll probablyhave a lot more resources on hand or utilizing a lot more equipment so you can keep things movingthe use of a debris management site obviously um those those are not cheap to establish umin accordance in accordance with all of the the requirements rick went over there’s there’slots of that goes into those um debris management sites so volume reduction recycling can is avariable that affects the cost disposal fees uh we talked through some of the waivers that canbe issued to help bring that cost down um from as it is as a disaster impact perspectiveenvironmental monitoring is um another thing if you have to you know if ifyou’re doing work in an environment environmentally sensitive area that those thosetypes of activities can be more expensive as well and monitoring debris monitoring and projectmanagement is a you know having site security not having site security all of those types ofdifferent activities all lead to cost variables so um what do you need to document eligibilityum and this is going to lead into our after our next presentation i’m going to bespeaking to technology and how we can document this type of eligibility but debris quantitiestypes and exact locations so fema does require to know how how much debris and thetype of debris was taken from where so if you’re submitting debris removal activitiesthey’re going to ultimately want to know how much debris removed you removed wheredid you get it and where did you take it and those ultimately are going to be requiredof you to submit fema uh documenting that it’s the media threat and legal responsibility uhthe best way to do this is through photographs being able to take a bunch of pictures laying inyour tree or in your roadways or impacting your public facilities and being able to show them thisis our legal responsibility and it was posing a threat uh procurement process and procedureswe talked through that documentation uh having those contracts documented and on hand forceaccount resources labor sheets equipment logs material invoices our doc is all documentationthat’s going to be needed to turn into fema the applicant monitoring information as i’vementioned uh you are required to monitor debris contractors and it’s encouragedto monitor your force account resources as well just to ensure that you’re documentingall of this and your workers can keep working and you’ll have somebody documenting as they go um andit’s uh it’ll help show all of this was reasonable and necessary and and really help you back into adocumentation um clause for fema one second here already sorry about that uh mutual aid agreementshaving those uh documented in writing is required so a lot of a lot of times those can be afterafter the fact so um if jurisdiction a is requesting jurisdiction b’s assistant then uhthey can agree upon you know that the this this they can come to an agreement um verbally but thenthey they must put it in writing you know relative sooner rather than later um i think regulationrequires 30 days but sometimes that can be um overlooked or or looked past just to um youknow depending on the severity of the event but uh documenting those mutual aid agreements and inwriting and one key component of that mutual aid agreement needs to be how reimbursement is flowedso as jurisdiction a who’s requesting jurisdiction b’s um equipment is is jurisdiction b gonna billa and how much are they gonna bill them for that service and again that billing cannot be dependentupon federal reimbursement so jurisdiction b can’t say well i’m going to build jurisdiction a if theyget if we get a fema declaration or it can’t be dependent upon federal reimbursement it’s got tobe to the letter i i’s dotted and t is crossed that jurisdiction b is going to build jurisdictiona and what they’re going to build them for so donated resources for emergency workcan help offset your non-federal share so if you have volunteers performing debrisremoval activities as long as you document it then the same way you would document your ownforce account labor and equipment so having the the who what when where and why documentationfor those donated resources then you can utilize those costs so you would document the timesand hours associated with donated resources and then fema would put a value to that donatedresource based off of the national rate and then offset your non-federal share of that value orup to the the 25 share of your so if you have a hundred thousand dollars in eligible debris costfema’s automatically gonna fund 75 000 of that 100 but if you can document donated resourcesin uh up to 25 000 then fema would uh fema would write a separate project funding youfor that 25 000 cost but if your donated resource is in excess of your 25 match then fema is onlygoing to give you the money for that 25 match they’re not going to give you more than thatthat 100 for the offset of donated resources historical local cost information um beingable that that goes back to show um you know maintenance and it shows uh the uh cost reasonableas well um maintenance records again we hit that federal aid roads we hit that flood control worksso i i do believe we have some folks on with uh the usa um and and if they have differentum emergency programs that would provide reimbursement for removal of debris from yourflood control areas then you would be required to go through their federal program anotherstipulation that comes up with that is the natural resource conservation service or nrcs is they theyhave an emergency watershed impairment program that if you have debris and a stream theywill pay to clear the debris stream clearance from that debris so that isyour nrcs or natural resource conservation service usa isthe army corps of engineers public right-of-way is you know being able todocument that the debris was taken from your public right away all goes back to the importanceof those debris monitors doing a very robust uh job of documenting documenting documenting in thesame with the hazardous trees limbs and stumps so with that that’s going to concludeuh our female reimbursement section i’ll look to kevin and we can go over some ofthe questions that we may have in chat awesome thanks brian so it looks like we only havea couple of questions that came through one was towards the beginning when you were talking aboutpublic assistance um and it’s related to schools and so the the comment originally was i thoughtthe public assistance guidance also includes schools specifically is that now part of theother entities formed for a public purpose uh so you are correct uh the the schools areconsidered part it just depends on how that school is established so there’s lots ofdifferent variants of schools so if we’re talking like a public owned school then yes theywould be an eligible applicant under the program perfect thank you um i am not seeing anyadditional questions that came through i know we had one question about anacronym but i know you addressed that just now during the presentation umso i think we’ll move on to our next uh speaker which brock is this still you or arewe turning it over to rick right now for inventory we’re going to turn this one over to rickfor a resource inventory perfect so next on our agenda we have again rick carlosky fromohio epa to talk through inventory of resources that is correct um let me share this withyou real quick here kevin give me a thumbs up okay hello again everybody thanks for joiningus in the afternoon i’m rick karlowski i’m the assistant chief of ohio epa’s division ofmaterials and waste management i serve as the chief debris management contact here at theagency and for the division so working with brock over the last couple of years developing somedebris management training for local ema offices um we expanded this out to include some otherplayers that will be inevitably involved in actual debris management and disaster responsewhen the time comes so a lot of things that brock was talking about earlier about inventoryingyour resources and what kind of needs you have for a debris management plan is really specificto your area and we’ve found across the state there are the haves and the have nots andsome have a lot of resources and some do not so when we try to do debris management training wetry to have the participants take a good look at what they have and what they don’t and addressthose shortfalls so brock already talked about force account labor and temporary labor needs andforce account equipment so do you have the kinds of equipment and labor available to cleanup stuff and clear debris and haul debris do you have mutual aid all thosethings come into play naturally when um a disaster comes because the disaster doesn’tconveniently stay in one area or one county and um only affect that place it typically youknow moves across boundaries and mutual aid comes into interplay quite a bit i’m going to havebarack say a little bit about volunteers because that is a a somewhat of a fluid type of resourcethat can be brought in and it seems to be a little bit more uh i could say popular these days whenthere’s various disasters going on including you know what we just got through in texas so um brockcan you uh expound on volunteers a little bit yep thanks rick uh one one key consideration whenit comes to volunteers i know uh one of our panel speakers gonna speak to volunteer management soi’m not gonna speak a lot to that but one key consideration i wanted to bring to everybody’sattention as it relates to debris work a lot of times our volunteer organizations that canprovide debris clearance are are going to want to do work on private property so helpinghomeowners clear their private property of the disaster debris is is where we see a lot ofthe volunteers services being provided not so much in our public world due to the legality uh and ofworking on public property and all of that stuff so we see a lot of our volunteer services beingallocated to uh private property clearance but being plugged in with those volunteers is criticaluh because you know as you can imagine you have a bunch of volunteers working in one jurisdictionor one area uh you’re going to want to have resources there as they’re bringing that privateproperty debris to your public right-of-way for for your initial or final disposal havingto know where they’re at and where those resources are going to be needed to assistthem in their operations is critical that’s all i have for volunteers rick thanks okaythank you brock um moving down the list here uh contracted services uh brock detailed that quitea bit um if you don’t have the service available you’re gonna go out and have the contract andfind it for the labor or service that you need the next recycling disposal capacity this is wherethe solid waste management districts come into be a very important player around the tablewhen talking about what kinds of programs you have in the area what kinds of companies thatwork in the area what kind of disposal capacity meaning you know what is the capacity ofthe landfills to to take this stuff and all those needs need to be considered in debrisplanning subject matter experts is a big area where ohio epa fits in simply becauseohio epa doesn’t have a lot of equipment to go out and manage debris however wehave experts around the state who have various knowledge and program knowledge of uhthings that can be done in disaster response and can help the local people decide umthe best solutions with the at least the environmental impacts involved idid uh say earlier in the morning potential permits needed for debris managementsites epa can get you through there that maze of getting those permits approved and it can talkyou through how to get them uh forms completed and and things like that so epa does a lotof technical uh advice and and subject matter expert um questions during uh debris responsethere are also local and regional resources there are any number of people who have worked invarious positions locally that have responded to disasters in the past it’s good to get to knowwho those people are what experience they bring and they don’t necessarily have come locally theyhave they could have come from another area of the country where they’ve dealt with this issuequite a bit and they’re very familiar with how to um organize how to assess needs and how tofind things that you need when the time comes this is just a typical example this wouldbe you know landfill disposal resources we put this slide up for uh emergencymanagement people basically just to tell them that ohio epa’s inventory oflandfills is is not that many we have municipal solid waste landfills which is whereyour household garbage goes there’s 38 of those it’s construction and demolition debris landfillsthat’s a different type of landfill it only takes construction demolition debris there’s 44 of thosehazardous waste landfill there’s only one of those in addition to that we have 63 transfer facilitiesthat basically uh it’s truck to truck transfer it’s not a disposal but transfer facilities canform and perform a vital need as a transport station for debris clearing um in certainsituations and we have seen those work well um it’s important to know uh if those in theaudience who didn’t know that all of these types of facilities have restrictions on the amount ofwaste they can accept per day and in the morning i did talk about the the amdwar or that termabout how much a landfill can take per day and if that limit has to be increased to account for uhadded debris disposal during an emergency response so um we maintain these types ofresources here at ohio epa for people who need to know we have a number ofonline lists for things that break things down we have some recycling information we havelicensed landfills we have composting facilities landfills accepting asbestos and soforth there’s a couple of links there we also have on our dimwim homepage we have someinteractive maps with relevant facilities showing where the landfills composting facilities transferfacilities what have you are located around the state with a kind of a point-and-click gis mapssomething else as a resource i wanted to point out to you uh we do use it quite a bit and in factum brock massacre and i uh when we put together the the one day full day debris managementcourse for ohio ema offices we basically use this debris fact sheet for localofficials as a as a pretty good guide for all of the content that’s located there andi’m gonna kind of show you what it looks like it is a good resource for local officials ifyou’re new to debris management or you need a a quick guide that can be very handy whenthe time comes this basically talks about um local government roles ohio environmentalprotection agencies here ohio ema is here um and the the fact sheet goes into um theohio epa district offices with phone numbers for emergencies as well there’s emergency hotlinesthere shows you the breakout of ohio epa down here we have some additional contacts there’sthe local solid waste management district map will come up you can look them any of them ofinterest your local health departments are linked there there’s some other numbersfor some other agencies if needed we also go into here’s a quick chart this comes inhandy quite a bit it’s a quick chart of management options for disaster related debris and wastesso you’ll see on the left side the type of waste and then it’ll describe what what that wasteconsists of and what it does not and then on the right is your management options with the numberone recommended option listed first so you go down the list there of the list and you’ll find theleast favorite options at the bottom there okay so that comes in handy quite a bit for localofficials trying to understand the differences of type of debris and why the type of debris uh isan issue and why it has to be handled certain ways we have some other links inthere for some other topics there’s a note down there about streams andwaterways we talked about the army corps engineers before and also on we have a quicklist here about uh debris management sites this summarizes a lot of the stuff i talkedabout earlier this morning about citing a debris management site some considerations comes in handy summarizes that in a page then weget into some more resources from our division composting facilities there’s somehyperlinks there to all the landfills infectious waste treatment facilities allthe things that we license and register in ohio those are available on quick linksfor you our diversion division of emergency remedial response is a reference there as wellour air pollution control division uh is there um highlighted some open burning regulations as aquick link because open burning is not an accepted means of debris disposal so um some people thinkuh that happens to be a legal way to get rid of it and it really isn’t so we emphasize the openburning uh problems okay uh the next half of the next couple pages uh basically outline a lot offema stuff that brock has been talking about and contracting and environmental considerations andthat is a that is a nice um fact sheet for you to use and get a hold of it will be available postedon the site for you at the conclusion of this workshop today so any other questions aboutdebris i can’t i can’t simplify this enough um if you have questions there’s our divisionmaterials and waste management main number call that number so you’ve gotdebris questions debris handling will get you to the right people okay i we havedistrict offices around the state and we have uh key people at each district office thatwill respond to debris management questions this is something some of you may be familiarwith this is an example of from waste management one of the largest waste management companies inthe country they do a lot of door-to-door citizen communication of debris management duringthe emergencies they have what i’m showing you is just an image of their citizenguide and how you can separate household trash and recycling for storm debris when theirparticular company gets involved and they are they typically put stuff out like this andrun campaigns for collection where they mandate on thursdays it’s a certaintype of debris and on mondays it’s this other type of debris and this is a citizen guidethat they will go door to door and drop off we have similar guides that are done byrumpke in in ohio and indiana and kentucky use and republic services also has a similar guidewhere they advocate curbside separation of disaster and storm debris for uh proper pickupand recycling purposes so i just wanted to show you a little example here of some resources thatare out there from the waste industry themselves as they help local communitiesrecover from debris events okay that is what i have for someresources for um the audience here so we can um i think brock is up next for uhtechnology kevin yes that is correct um and just before we move on to brock i just wanted to pointout um within the chat there was some questions regarding the links to these documents that rickpresented on we will be sending out the links to where they’re posted on our webpage followingthe workshop and that will also include links again to a recording of today’s presentation andthe powerpoints as well so thank you for that question and we’ll make sure we get out the linksto everyone so with that being said i don’t see any additional questions in here so we’ll turnit over to brock for a discussion on technology alrighty thank you kevin um i believemy screen should be back up and sharing so we’re going to talk a little bit on justvery briefly on technology during a disaster debris management event one of the exampleswhere the example i’m going to go over today is what we utilize as the state when we weremission assigned from montgomery county to remove the debris from two of their temporary debrisstaging areas or their debris management sites so what we did uh was i i i developed thistechnology for us to monitor those contractors we as the state utilized our existing uh wastehauler uh third-party administrator so they then our third-party administrator then entered intoagreements with um hauling our haulers waste haulers and uh odot was gracious enough to providesome loaders for the sites so um we were able to piece it together in that fashion but we had tohave a way to document what trucks were coming and going from those sites and what they weretaking out and where they were going so um i i thought no better time than now or then to usesome technology uh to to achieve that as opposed to trying to track down papers and photos andtrying to piece things together um i i guess one one caveat to that mission assignment was uh wefilled the debris monitoring aspect of that with our ohio national guard ohio military reservistfolks so they were able to provide some personnel that we equipped with they wereequipped with their their own personal cell phone on on their on behalf and they uh we gave themsome battery backups and some logins to our agl or arc online account and they were able to getoff and running with what i’m about to show you so our next slide is going to have a link and forthose that want to follow along at home feel free but you don’t have to so if you take uh your yoursmartphone out or tablet or whichever has a camera and you pin your smart device over the qr codeshown on the screen you it’ll it’ll pop up a link on on the top of your device and that linkwill take you to our debris monitoring survey that each of our monitors filled outfor every truck that was coming and going at the debris management sites i’m goingto leave that link up for one more minute here and then i’m going to transitionmy screen uh to show you what data we ended up getting and what it looked like umafter it was all said and done um so okay so uh what we’re seeing here is uh the datathat we collected so we had 983 truckloads leave our debris management sites it’s plottedeach of those truck loads on our map so you can see the site here at forest park and the othersite over here that was in the city of trotwood so and each of those dots is a data point downhere in our collection so what we did was we we knew or measured what what our haulers wereproviding in regards to uh equipment so we had a variety of three different types of containersor capacities we had roll-off containers that had a 30 cubic yard capacity we had semi-trucktrailers that had 40 cubic yard capacity and we had standard dump trucks that had a 30 cubicyard capacities as well so i made that a um for those that pulled up the survey on on your end youcan see that was a multiple choice question um so as the monitors come in they fill in the requiredfields giving us the required data and then they would um take a picture of that truck and attachit to each of those fields and that would give us all of the data we needed to monitor our ourdebris contractor so looking at this data set here um it tells me you know what time it wascompleted the hauler company name the driver name the the truck plate number the the type of bedcapacity or the the type of uh truck that was being uh moved uh the estimated percentage of fulland uh the the debris site we were pulling from and then also it gave us the latitudeand longitude for that uh site and as you can see we got photos of the truck asit was coming and going um so this monitor um estimated this to be at 99 which i would agreeand that just gave us the capability to um monitor and cross-check based off of the um invoice or aload ticket which is also so the truck would go and our monitors were on scaffolding taking thosephotos of the trucks and then as the trucks come back they would bring a waist slip just likethis and then we would complete that survey by taking a picture of that waist slip and thatwould give us um are all the information we needed to to provide the fema as it related to debrismonitoring so what we ended up having to submit as a state for fema reimbursement for ouractivities was um the uh contract that we had with our third party administrator and um what idid was i i printed out this report um subsequent of all of the photos and uh that are attachedand i gave this listing of all 930 or yeah 983 um data points to fema and fema came back andasked for a representative sample they took 20 of the documentation so they said giveus lines you know 3 10 12 and 30 and um then i went through and i downloaded these reportsand then um i just hit the print button here and i would print this off and give it directly tofema and that was enough to validate our claim uh so you can utilize this type of software for lotsof different data collections um outside of debris management and debris monitoring it’s a very wehad very good success with the utilization of it it was a pretty self-explanatory umeasy to use uh form or not form but um easy to use software you don’t have to haveinternet connectivity to be able to submit these uh um to to be able to uh create thesesurveys so if um it’s like i had mentioned we gave these folks our debris monitors logins underour um existing software agreement with arcgis and that those logins were good they were ableto download the app the the arc uh gis app on their phone they could download the survey asthey were connected to the internet and then um not connected to internet or cell service theycould go and complete that survey as many times as needed and then at the end of the day if theygot back and wanted to connect to their wi-fi um they could do that and then they could uploadall of their survey data um that’s one option uh to utilize we encourage the use of it um in realtime because that what that did was this this provides data back into uh the state emergencyoperation center where we were then able to see the progress being made and how we were able toyou know break down to see um at the end of each day i can filter these types of listings um atthe end of each day i could go and see how many um how many dump trucks or semi truckswere removed in that day or period i could see um kind of the epson flows of the theprogress being made real time as it was happening um while i’ve got everybody’s attention andi think i’ve got a few more minutes here um i do want to say we are more than likely going tomove towards a similar type process for conducting individual damage assessments so this willallow homeowners and are now virtual setting um through you know this covid response umfema’s had to get pretty creative on their end so this this type of surveying uh mayuh is is is on its way to be rolled out through the state for uh disastersurvivors to um document and submit their damages uh as it relates to a declareddisaster so um that’s that’s all i have um for today i i do want to add one more thingrick pointed to it in his last uh presentation that we do offer a full eight hour courseon debris management in ohio um it’s it’s posted at our department of public safety trainingcampus so it’s free to register for that training campus and you can get lots of different types oftrainings through there but we offer a the full eight-hour course on debris management where wetalk similar topics but in a lot more detail and it allows us to have a little bit more courseparticipation as well um so i we do apologize if if that was something that that you missedbut we we had a lot of information to go over and we wanted uh to not leave a lot of it outand we wanted to you know at least hit the highs today but if if you’re interested in a courseparticipation um type um setting for for this information sharing i would encourage you to goto the department of public safety training campus the course id is 202 and it’sthe ohio debris management course and you can find that of course again atthe ohio department of public training public safety training campus our next offeringof that course is april 22nd of this year and it’ll be offered virtually through themicrosoft teams platform again um without that or without further ado i guess we can take anyfinal questions uh kevin i’ll turn it back to you awesome thank you brock that was really greatum we do have one hand raised it is john munir so john do you want to unmute yourself andask any questions or comments sure thank you kevin and i i really don’t have a question but iwanted to empha emphasize to the group um the um the database that um the tool that brock justrolled out where you had to take your phone and take a picture of that i cannot emphasize toall of you if any of you have gone through and and gone through a disaster where youhave had to log tickets and do all of that kind of work that particular tool isincredible it will save you hours upon hours of you know just downloading stuff onto excelspreadsheets and preparing reports for fema so i would really strongly recommend everybody gettinga hold of that and whenever you have a situation a disaster whether it’s federally declared ornot that tool is a tremendous asset so i just wanted to make that comment uh kevin and brock forthe for the group um just a great asset thank you thanks john we appreciate that um brock i am notseeing any additional questions uh within our chat and i haven’t gotten anything through mail jeffhave you received any questions through email no i have nothing through email okay thank you so i guess with that brock did you have anylast-minute comments or anything you wanted to add no i i think we’re good um okay again that ijust hope everybody was was able to enjoy our presentation today it’s not over yet we do havethat uh panelist presentation which i’m excited for as well um and don’t ever uh hesitate to reachout to us um at least i’ll put my name out there for any uh follow-up if you guys have um youknow if uh i hope this sparked a lot of interest and um you guys start your journey througha debris management planning process and if as questions arise feel free to reach out thankskevin awesome thank you brock so again i just wanted to thank all of our speakers today sofar so brock rick and phil thank you so much in addition just thank you to our planning teamthey were all a part of it as well but also john menier was a critical role in helping to planthis and then chet cheney and jeff monovin so it was really a great great collaboration effort forthe today’s workshop but again it is not over yet so starting at 3 30 today we have a case studypanelist session on different events that have occurred throughout the state so on that panelwe have michelle balls from hamilton county solid waste management district pam haberkos fromclermont county ema and then mark isaacson from greene county public health so we’re very excitedit’s going to be about an hour-long case study panelist session with some q a at the end so thankyou and we hope that everyone is able to still attend that today so we’re going to go ahead andget started with our case study panelist session so thank you to everyone who still stuck itout with us throughout the entirety of the workshop today we really appreciate it andreally appreciate the great participation it’s been wonderful to see so just a couple ofquick housekeeping items very shortly i’ll be sending out via chat the afternoon survey pleasemake sure to fill that out in order to gain rs credits but then also we will be sendingout through that a certificate of completion to ensure that you can get any additionalceus that you might want to receive finally while the presenters are speakingtoday please just remember to keep yourself muted just to avoid any backgroundnoise we really appreciate that and then just with the amount of people attendingtoday we do recommend that you turn off your webcam just to ensure that you have the properconnectivity ish you don’t have any proper or you don’t have any connectivity issues so um withthat being said uh we have a great panelist today so our first speaker is michelle ballsfrom and she is the solid waste manager for hamilton county firebase managementdistrict so michelle do we have you you do awesome should i go ahead andshare my s my screen yes i am okay all right i’m never really quite sure if thisis working or not so if it’s not please stop me well i i can see it so you are all good on myend great so um as kevin said i’m michelle baltz with the hamilton county recycling and solid wastedistrict and i’m going to talk to you today about our response to the 2008 windstorm you may youlikely remember this event it impacted all of ohio it especially did impact us down in hamiltoncounty we’re at the um southwest corner of the state um and so i’m going to talk a little bitabout what we did um and i’ll try to answer any questions i will have to say i mean it’s beena long time so i did have to do some digging to try to remember all of this i think i compactedit back into a little corner of my brain but um i think overall we had a really great responseto it even though we were utterly unprepared so um without further ado so you may rememberthis was september 14 2008 and the remnants of hurricane ike hit southwest ohio it reallyhit the whole state it was actually considered a category 1 hurricane which is obviously somethingthat we’re not usually thinking is going to happen we had winds 75 miles per hour and really justwidespread damage across the county and and many other areas outside of our county and i thinkwhat was really devastating about this is that the damage was so widespread so you know a hurricaneor tornadoes are terrible um and they can they can cause a lot of damage but they tend to be you knowisolated into a certain area but this was just our whole county was swept with it um we’ve also hadfloods and so they tend to be in a certain area but this really was our whole county we had over900 000 people lose electricity and i was one of them which is 90 of the residents um and and manyof those were multiple days or even more than a week um and i was one of the ones who was morethan a week so um we had a few different tiers response the largest response we had was our helpwith the communities so we have 48 communities in hamilton county in our solid wastedistrict and um a few days after the the event we happened to have a policy committeemeeting and our policy committee passed a motion to authorize us to spend five hundred thousanddollars from our carryover to help manage the storm debris so we had been meeting with communityrepresentatives and we continue to meet with them really asking what are your needs how can we helpwith this disaster and it was determined that um the largest impact the communities were seeing waswith trees being torn down limbs coming off just yard debris everywhere i mean there was someother debris but the bulk of it was yard debris so that’s where we came in to help we decidedthat we would provide tub grinding and then wood chip removal service and the communities imean they really had to start moving this stuff right away we had um 14 sites in the county andthe communities i mean really they had limbs in their streets they had to get them out of theway and so they really put together those sites we did not have anything really to do with thesites they were already together once we started working with them um but we helped with managingthe debris on those sites and so it was really a time when the communities were helping eachother out um you know there’s there were 14 sites in 12 different communities but every communityof those 48 were collecting material and so you know they were bringing it to their neighboringsites and neighboring communities were saying hey you can bring it here um and we ended up havinga cost of over 368 000 and i’ll talk a little bit more about that later um but i know from thetheme of paperwork that is the our exact cost so i did put in here just a few pictures of someof our those sites that we had the top two are from the green township site so the first oneis a picture of the grinder and just the raw uh wood material and the next one was um a few weekslater of the actual chipped material and then we had this was a site i think it was sims townshipwhere they just had you know debris piled up so the next level of assistance that weoffered was to residents so we had quite a few uh obviously a lot of residents who had materialjust in on their own private property and so how do we help them get them the information that wethey need so we um we have three yard trimmings drop-off sites that are open regularly usuallyon the weekends one is open during the week and we immediately worked with our contractorsfor those sites to extend the hours of operation so that people could drop off material this wasat our site at the rumpke landfill but people could drop off that material all throughoutthe week extended hours in the weekend and just to give you an idea one of the sites thefirst week received 700 cars and to compare that usually we get 80 tons collected in septemberin september 2008 we had 800 tons collected at those three sites so they were really well usedwe also because we have those 48 communities and they all have different ways of collectingtheir yard trimmings we also compiled a list of how each community was handling the yard trimmingso what do you want what they wanted their residents to do with that material and and otherdebris as well and we were able to get that out to the media and have it on our website prominentlyso that you know not everyone has a pickup truck like this you know especially in urban areas somepeople don’t even have cars and so you know what can i do with this this tree that just fellin my backyard so we had the answers for them we also really collaborated with the media this was obviously a really big media storyfor that month or two after and we were able to really get a lot of attention on yard debrisbecause that was one of the big problems and so we uh we were able to issue press releasesmedia reminders send them those lists and the media was just gobbling it up they wantedmore and more stories to be able to offer on this so they you know they put it out there we just inthat first two weeks we had six newspaper stories and 26 tv spots about specifically about the yardtrimmings and what to do with the archery rings we also had a media briefing event at the monkeylandfill a few days after the event and i have to say at this time um my boss holly crissman someof you may know her or my old boss my boss at this time she um she had to do this press briefing andshe had not had hot water in her house for three days at this point and so she had to go up on tvwithout having washed her hair in three days so i felt really bad for her but we did get a lot ofmedia attention on it and i don’t think anybody focused on her hair just the great informationshe was giving them so a few lessons learned and this has been touched on a little bit actuallyall three of these during throughout the day but we were at first a little nervous that we werenot going to be eligible for fema reimbursement because we did not have a debris management planwe didn’t it wasn’t part of our solid waste plan we weren’t listed anywhere as being someonewho would participate in debris management we just hopped in there and helped so it wasquestionable whether we were going to receive fema reimbursement we did in the end but um thiswas a big lesson learned for us so we immediately started working with our local ema office and puttogether a debris management plan we’ve actually reached out to them to do it again because we’restarting our solid waste plan update this year and we put it in our solid waste plan as well notas in much detail but really just stating again you know that if if a disaster were to happen wehave this much money set aside that we can use out of our carryover balance or a regular budgetshould our budget allow us to so it gives us some flexibility that if we were really financiallyhurting we’re not obligated to give money we don’t have but it does help with that female eligibilityum we also had some issues with our procurement of services so um it was funny when i was listeningto whoever was talking about this before because we so at first we you know needed to get thisdebris taken care of immediately and we thought that the fastest way to do that would bethe city of cincinnati had a contract for um tub grinding so we’re like perfect you know wecan legally hop onto this we consulted our um our our legal representatives they’re like yes you cando this so we originally our plan was to hop onto that contract and that’s how we started however wequickly learned that the tub grinder that they had set aside was not enough to takecare of everything that we had that we needed to take care of so we had to kindof shift and the process and we did everything the way you’re supposed to the one that theylisted but it is so slow and i’m having to get the quotes when when you know everyone’s busythese these tub grinders were already at work helping private places so they were working youknow 12-hour days and then they were having to put together quotes for us but also trying to estimatehow big are these piles now how big are they going to be while you know they’re still cleaning upmaterial um you know how it is it is really hard to estimate and i know somebody had a slide withthose estimations and we had that information um but we were it was really up in the air how dowe figure out how much material we have and and you know how much is this debris that’s mostlytrees it’s going to compact we ended up coming pretty close to what we thought uh it wasoriginally going to be i think we were around like 355 and we ended up being you know the 360s so weended up getting pretty close the other problem which was mentioned earlier that we cameacross is that one of the top grinders we work with charged us um by the hour for laborand so that um we found was not the best way it was not the most efficient way um you know theyreally didn’t have a whole lot of incentive to to get through the piles quickly because we’repaying them by the hour but also then when we submitted that fema paperwork we had to have allof those timesheets and that was a mess so i don’t recommend i remember i recommend you do it by tonby cubic yard any other way besides per hour um but in the end it worked out we were able to getfema reimbursements and i i i was really impressed with all of the communities working together allthe neighbors helping each other out it was really a good experience in the end after youknow i can say that now 13 years later but that’s all i have so kevin if thereare any questions i’m happy to answer them awesome thank you michelle we did have onequestion that came through and it’s regarding um i know you mentioned working on your currentplan um so the question was do you anticipate making any changes to your current disasterdebris management plan based on past events if so what are you looking to adjust you knowi i think that hearing today about the debris management sites i think that it we don’t i thinkit would be smart for us to consider if we need to have some of those set aside um and working withour local communities i mean we certainly have quite a few class four composting facilities umyou know that we can lean on for sites and some of those are operated by um communities but i ido think you know just listening to this today i learned a lot and i think we could do betterwith uh planning and thinking about what um what disasters were possibly going to have we may haveanother hurricane but you know that’s probably not going to be the huge thing but we definitelyare going to have more floods um we’ll likely have more tornadoes so considering those you knowwhat areas would be um uh most vulnerable to that i think i think having those things in our in ourplan or at least having the reference the ema plan um that would be more in detail i think wouldbe useful perfect thank you and then i did have one additional question um so obviously there’s alot of moving parts during a disaster brew cleanup i know it was a little bit ago but howdid you create a communication plan along among all the different organizationsthat you worked with during that cleanup so i um i don’t exactly remember i remember thatwe worked really closely with um with our pr staff who were really helpful in communicating it tothe media um and i know that we worked closely with ema but i wasn’t the person who wasin contact with ema so i i think that maybe someone from hamilton county ema is on andif they are i’d be you know be happy if they remember this event but i’m pretty sure we leanedon ema for for that communication yep perfect thank you um well that was those wereall the questions that i received um but thank you again for presenting today wereally appreciate it and if there’s any more that we get for like the general panel i’ll askthem towards the end so thank you again michelle all right you’re welcome okay so next onour agenda today we have pam haverkos from clermont county uh she is the clermont county emadirector so director havercoast do we have you on today yeah can you see and hear me correctlyuh yes i can great sorry i’m having a little bit of technical difficulties soi had to switch out my computer i’m on vacation too so don’tuh just ignore my background um okay i’ll go ahead and share my screen nowokay hopefully can you see it nope not yet okay can you see it now yes i can okay so as i saidi had to switch out computers so you’re going to see it in a pdf versus a powerpoint presentationum well thank you for inviting me to participate my name is pam heverkos i’m the claremontcounty emergency management agency director and in clermont county in the past nine yearswe’ve had a series of floods and tornadoes so i’m going to talk about some of the lessons thatwe’ve learned from all of those events so we had a large ef-3 tornado in 2012.We’ve had a fewsmaller ef-1 and ef-2 and ef-0 tornadoes as well as we’ve also had a series of ohioriver floodings back in 2015 and 2018. the type of debris that we deal with is verydependent on the type of event that occurred the geographic area affected the unmet needsof the community and then the resources that are available so that would all play into what weactually how we mitigate and manage the event and how we manage that debris so i’ll move on to thenext slide so again i’m sure you guys talked about this most of the day but during the emergencyresponse phase we’re really worried about just getting access access for our firstresponders access for our utility providers access for our public works agencies and making sure thatwe can get the public in and out of the disaster area safely we’ve had numerous events that haveaffected so much woody debris that we’ve had utility lines down that affected whole communitieswhere they couldn’t get in and out school buses couldn’t make it so again we’ve had to make surethat we’re communicating effectively with our community partners about you know where it issafe for them to go and not go so back in 2017 we actually had a tornado that came through in themiddle of the night around 3 50 in the morning and so it became really challenging to even get ourfire and ems partners in there to determine um the level of damage as well as then communicatingwith our school partners to make sure that they didn’t send their buses out because they would notbe able to get their buses in that neighborhood communications with all of our partners becomesvery critical so it’s not just our fire and ems partners and our law enforcement partners but ourpublic works partners and our utility partners are also very vital so we want to make sure thateveryone understands how we can communicate together and then safety and accountabilitybecause we want to ensure that everyone is safe and then we really focus on the restorationof critical infrastructure so moving on to recovery operations this is when we actually getinto the staging sorting and disposal of debris so we back in 2012 we had a significantef-3 tornado that hit the village of moscow as well as some of our townships in the southernpart of our county but what made this event so challenging is that it had a lot of constructiondebris a lot of woody debris hazardous materials but it also posed a great challenge to us becausethe village of moscow was in a flood plain so we started staging and storing that debris ina location and then quickly found out that the ohio epa wasn’t going to give us a permit tobe able to stage that so that becomes another issue is that while we were looking at itfrom the perspective that it was a tornado and we were trying to deal with it you alsohave to think about what other hazards could potentially affect that community so being thatit’s in a flood plain you don’t want to be staging debris in that location we also again lookingat the cost effectiveness again this is the importance of um sorting the debris because if youcan sort your woody debris and chip it up at the location that saves you a lot of money in terms ofhaving to cart it off to a landfill and pay those landfill fees some of the other challenges youface with the disaster is private property access again working with that individual community andgathering information from the residents about how much support they really want so againin a tornado where people are coming back to their private property to try to collect upany valuables that they might be able to salvage we’ve had communities that are very adamant thatwe not bring in resources to clean up private property until or to even assist with privateproperty until the residents have had access to salvage their personal belongingsagain it’s a matter of communication to those private property owners aboutbringing that material to the right way so that we can then pick it up andagain having a plan to pick that up so some of the things that we have learnedthrough events is coordination of what we call community cleanup events those areusually the weekend or two after a major event we then coordinate a large number of volunteersagain in conjunction with the local community we identify what can we manage what roles do we needto have filled and how many volunteers do we need as well as how many people do we have to supervisethose volunteers because you don’t want volunteers to be again just walking around on privateproperty we want to make sure that they are really well supervised and so back in 2017 wehad an event that same event that happened in the middle of the night we were able to workwith pierce township and the village of amelia to coordinate a weekend cleanup activity andutilizing volunteers we were able to really help that community recover in a matter of oneweekend versus what would probably have taken them over a month to clean up and through the use ofvolunteers we were able to put civil air patrol volunteers on private property and helphomeowners move you know woody debris from their backyards and bring it to theright of way we were then able to partner with the local public works agencies to chipit up right at the right of way this saved a lot of money and effort and it wouldjust chipped it right up into the right of way versus putting it into a dumpsterand having it carted off to a landfill so when it comes to emergency management i wouldby far say that i’m not an expert on debris management however what the role we feel is theability to engage other partners and to um to work with our public works agencies and our localcommunities to make sure that we are maximizing limited resources as well as not duplicatingeffort and then ensure that we are being safe about how we’re utilizing our volunteer force soone of the things that we have done in claremont county is we’ve partnered with the developmentaldisabilities to run our volunteer reception center and we’ve had the ability to do a mobilevolunteer reception center on numerous events and most of what those volunteers are ableto help us with this debris management so again we identify a location where we canhave everybody all of those volunteers meet up we identify a location where that mobilevolunteer reception center will be established we have developmental disability staff man thereception center at that location all of the volunteers are registered they are given justin time training we ensure that they’re dressed appropriately and that they have the whitefootwear and personal protective equipment and any other tools that they might need inorder to do their job we then have a means to track them and we can maintain thataccountability of all those volunteers this minimizes too by bringing them to a centrallocation we can then utilize our claremont county transportation service or transportationconnection ctc which is our bus company we can then bus them in and bust them out so that wedon’t have a lot of personal vehicles on private property so this has become a great asset forus and it maximizes you know such a limited volunteer force and ensures that we can help allof our communities throughout the affected area this also too becomes a cost savings i believeit was michelle just talked about the public assistance program and for communitiesthat are seeking that public assistance reimbursement generally it’s a 75 federal shareand a 25 local share sometimes it’s a little less if the state chips in their 12 and a halfpercent but what you’re able to do for the local communities is track all those volunteer hoursand all those donated items that are contributed to the response and recovery effort and thatcan be used as an in-kind contribution towards that local communities match so we’ve beenable to track all of these volunteer hours um what role they were playing um you knowand estimate based off of what is the fema um rate and then use that towards you theirin-kind contributions so that’s been a great reward for those local communities the otherthings that as emergency management that we are able to do is the logistical support again whenyou’re using a large number of volunteers you want to make sure that everyone has accessto a restroom especially if they’re out in more rural settings make sure that they haveaccess to sanitation and this becomes even more important especially with covet 19 but wewant to make sure everyone has access to hand wash stations and hand sanitizer you alsowant to make sure that your volunteer staff are fed that they have water and that they havethe equipment that they need to do their role and again that’s what emergency managementcan do for um you know that type of response and then again that management and accountabilitywe want to make sure that when volunteers come in to work for the day that we know when they checkout and we know when they go home we know if any one of them gets hurt or injured while they’re onthe job they do sign a limited liability waiver so that releases the developmental disabilities andthe local community should someone get severely injured we also partner with our local fire andems to make sure that if someone does get injured that we have a maintenance and mechanismto get them to a facility to get treatment so really as i’ve said we’ve been able to reallymaximize and develop a very efficient process for utilizing our volunteer staff and volunteerresources to maximize the debris management so in the ohio river flood we were able to putvolunteers out on major roadways to clear debris um especially debris that would be caught up inthe ditch lines or culverts um and be able to get that out we’ve also been able to removedebris woody significant woody debris from homeowners private property to get it to theright of way that’s been really helpful the one thing i would caution in a lesson learned is thatagain it’s very important that we’re communicating when we are using public works assets thatthey not go on private property we actually had a situation in 2012 following the tornadowhere we had a large amount of public works assets that came into the county to help us andyou know everyone has good intentions but when you put heavy equipment on private propertyyou have the potential to damage culverts driveways septic systems so it’s just reallyimportant that we not put that heavy machinery on private property again this is wherewe can utilize volunteer forces and to to work on private property and bringthat equipment or bring those resources to the right way so that the public works agencies canpick them up and then dispose of them properly so i believe that’s about all i had inthis presentation i’m sure i could talk about this after hours we’ve had as i’ve saidjust numerous instances that have warranted the activation of debris management planbut again i thank you and thank you for the opportunity to speak about some of thelessons we’ve learned from our past experiences pam thank you so much that was a fantasticpresentation so thank you um we did have a couple of questions that came in um specificallyfor you so one of them is uh what advice do you have for everyone on the call regardingorganizing volunteers throughout a disaster event so one of the things the first pieceof advice is to develop a plan for a volunteer reception center how are you going tomanage those volunteers as soon as a disaster happens people are automatically calling anemergency management office to volunteer so initially following an event you have to havea plan to virtually manage those names and resources that are coming in and then pretty muchyou’re telling them we’ll get back to you when we have a better handle on what the local communitywants to do because again it is home rule so we then partner with the local community to identifyyou know how many volunteers do they want and what is the rules that they want those volunteersand then we as i said we have a mobile volunteer reception center that can come in and be thatresource on the days that we have those community cleanup events in our volunteer reception centerthrough the developmental disabilities they’re wonderful and they’re also very willing togo to other parts of the state you know if someone needed assistance again we’ve had so manyinstances in our county and we’ve had the goodwill of many other partners outside of our county thatwe’re always willing to support other counties awesome thank you another question that camethrough what do you do if the community has no plans to manage woody debris otherthan place it on a specified property again like i believe michelle said you know wehave a debris management plan but again it’s just more of a show of a plan because you really don’tknow what the disaster is going what disaster is going to be and where it’s going to happen sohaving a really defined debris management plan has always been a challenge for us because againyou just never know every disaster so different but you know some of the lessons we’velearned is again that if you can separate out that woody debris we have actually been ableto partner with other with landscaping companies to bring in a tub grinder so where we didn’tactually pay for the tub grinder um and that we’ve had a landscaping company that came in andchipped off all of our woody debris and then took the woody debris for their mulch soagain it’s more about partnerships because um michelle kind of mentioned itthis tub grinders are very very expensive and we don’t have one through our countyengineer’s office so again it’s about partnerships knowing what resources are in your community orin your region and then trying to build on those partnerships and you know again learning fromother people’s past experiences is really helpful uh we did get an additional questionthat came through so do you do any exercises during theyear to test out your plan um this year is quite different um on a normalyear we do um probably 20 to 30 exercises through emergency management on diff all differenttypes of scenarios and i’ll be honest we’ve had an event that would really activate ourdebris management plan about once every three years so that’s pretty sufficient toget some good use out of our debris plan um so i i don’t think that we’ve actually donean exercise on debris management we’ve just touched on it and lots of different exercises butbecause we have had um ohio river floods at 15 18 we’re due for another ohio river flood hopefullybefore not before i get back from vacation but but we’re prepared again to manage it if we do umso yeah but there are lots of exercises out there on the you know you can google search and i’msure other people have done exercises that you could um pick and choose from other resources yesyep thank you and then the final question is one that i actually asked um michelle as well but howdid you create a communications plan among all the different organizations kind of going throughoutyou know a disaster debris event well especially with the ohio river flood where we have advancedwarning we start planning with all of our partners two to three weeks out if we have an advancewarning that a flood is coming we pull all those partners together we talk through how do we wantto manage the event how do we want to communicate our fire ems law enforcement and all of ourpublic works agencies have all agreed on having a centralized unified command structure at onelocation this makes it very easy for us to bring everyone together to have a morning briefingand an afternoon briefing and then everyone goes out and does their job during the day so it’sa modified emergency operation center it’s not held at our county emergency operations center andagain a lot of that stems from when an ohio river event occurs the drive to our eoc is just toofar because roads are blocked so this gives us a great opportunity to come together at a very ata school building that’s very close in vicinity to the ohio river and it brings all of ourpartners from the i believe it’s five townships three villages multiple law enforcement agenciesit brings us all together into one location and then we can work that way we also againas we’re preparing for events we have a distribution group that blasts everyone throughemail and that keeps everyone on the same page and as i said because we’ve had a series ofevents that are repetitive um we all know each other pretty well and we know how tocommunicate via cell phone radio and email awesome well thank you so much i did nothave any additional questions submitted through uh chat or email so again pam thankyou so much for presenting today we really appreciate it and uh thank you for joining uson your vacation yeah thank you thanks again for having me hey no problem um so last on ourpanelist agenda we have mark isaacson program manager at greene county public healthso mark do we have you on oh yes i’m on awesome i can hear you okay and i cansee you now all right so let’s see did i share the page right you’re all goodi can see it okay let me make it bigger here okay well my name is mark isaacson i’m the programmanager for greene county public health in xenia ohio and they asked to talk about our response indebris management so um i’ve been with the health department a long time and we’ve had numeroustornadoes and incidents to um practice debris management uh the main one i’m going to talkabout today is um the most recent event may 27 2019 just a year and a half ago uh beaver creekcity and township were struck by an ef-3 tornado uh monday night memorial day weekend at 11 12p.m so it was again in the middle of the dark and um the health department worked to respondin a number of ways uh going forward um the path of the tornado um this was part of a majorstorm event memorial day weekend probably many of you remember there were three or four othertornadoes that came through dayton trotwood salina and but the green county tornado started onthe um northwest corner of greene county uh right near wright-patterson air force base on thepath of the tornado came through the riverside and crossed over i-675 near the wright stateuniversity and fairfield commons mall and then traveled almost straight east through beavercreekcity the north part of beavercreek city below fairfield commons mall through beavercreektownship and several developed subdivisions and then through some farm country and finallyleft just north of zinnia along u.s route 68. so it was on the ground for a long time with alot of wind damage assessments later on came up with 44 buildings destroyed 164 with major damage346 with minor damage 595 buildings were affected uh we had major um tree and brush damage andelectricity was knocked out in a number of areas uh the areas that came where this came throughwas a heavily wooded lots of mature trees most of the houses were between 25 and 50 years old soyou had lots of lots of tree damage um and that green county has responded to severalother major storms in the past um in 1974 we had the major xenia tornadothat came through the center of town um that has affected greene county in a numberof ways and then in september of 2000 there was an f4 tornado that came through thewestern part of zinnia um this is on the west side of zinnia it was a former walmart plazathe tornado came right through the parking lot through the strip mall jumped over a field andthen went through a subdivision and eventually went through the green county fairgrounds anddestroyed four or five of the agricultural barns at the zenia or greene county fairgroundsso we’ve had some practice in going through uh damage assessment and cleaning upafter tornadoes um this is a just an aerial photo of beaver creek um from thetornado showing the the common problems that you have whenever there’s a tornado or a massivestorm event you have solid waste debris that would need to go to a landfill demolition debristhat people are going to want to clean up their torn off roofs their damaged sheds you havetree and brush debris and disposal um the trees that get knocked down we have a lack ofelectricity especially with this storm the most of the areas had overhead power lines so they wereknocked off or bent over you had down power lines lack of electricity if you’re on a well that meansyou have no water because you have no electricity in some instances um the city of dayton whichsupplies part of the water to beaver creek one of their treatment plants was knocked outof power and they did not have readily available backup generators so that water treatment plantwas uh without power for a number of days until they were able to sort that out so um when youhave disaster response we i we people talked about before but you have to come up with uh cooperationand how you’re going to um work together we’ve had the benefit in greene county most of ouragencies use the incident command system whenever we have employees we make them taketraining then you have to sort out which agency will be in charge of which part of theresponse um health department we have food safety well there were somewhere between 80 and100 restaurants in and around the fairfield commons mall that had no electricity for anumber of days you have the housing situation where you have damaged houses damaged propertypeople that have well water have no water supply and then you have the solid waste issues whichthe health department will take the lead in police and fire departments they’re workingthrough safety issues uh injury response crowd control we noticed on the next day theday after memorial day the beaver creek police had to set up temporary roads to go around the thedebris but that didn’t stop the people that were wanting to come and sightsee and see the damageto the aldi store and see the roof blown off of mike’s car wash we had people walking aroundpark their car in the parking lot and try to take pictures so there were some crowdcontrol issues that we had to work through city township government officials governordewine shortly after the incident declared a state of emergency which opens up a lot ofextra funding sources ways to respond that aren’t in a normal situation um city beavercreek city had um a good response with some um i don’t know if they were trained but they knewwhat to do in the situation we had incidents where public utilities needed to come out um i mentionedthe city of dayton that didn’t was able to supply water to some parts of the city three of thesubdivisions that were damaged had no electricity of their sewage drained into um pump stations andthe electricity for those pump stations was um not working which meant the pump stations weren’tworking so you had to or the utility company senator engineering had to work on gettinggenerators to supply the power to the the pump stations with no electricityin some instances the gas was shut off natural gas and then we had streets and roadsthat were blocked with downed power lines uh blocked with large trees and just the umextra traffic of people trying to get out or you had damaged and wreckedcars that were in the way building regulation that was um they’re theones that determine how bad is your building does it need to be demolished can it be repairedand then we have epa working in the background providing support um guidance when we have anemergency declaration what does that mean for taking care of solid waste and debrismanagement and as we’ve talked about it before the other speakers that the agenciesneed to work together to support support and help one another so that the disaster cleanupand process can move forward this is a one of the farms that was damaged in the area but you canlook at the picture and you can see you have decisions to be made on what to do with propertiesthat are in like this we have solid waste all the solid waste needs to go to a propertylicensed landfill the demolition debris once they start cleaning up what is demolition debrisuh green green county and xenia has a very active um construction and demolition debris landfillon the west side of zinnia um the operator there is very conscientious uh we went to visit himand reminded him about what can and can’t go into the demolition debris landfill um hehas dumpsters on site to sort the process of when people bring in material so that itcan be recycled or you can make sure that solid waste doesn’t go into the demolition debrislandfill we have recycling material that can go to a scrap yard a zinnia has two activescrap yards where they take in metal debris we also have asbestos containing materialsthat need to be managed rapca which is our air pollution agency in southwest ohio sentout a press release reminding people that even if um you have a tornado and damage youstill have to pay attention to asbestos rules and they have to be followed umespecially if it’s a commercial property um less so when it’s a home and we also had peoplethat were responding to well i can just dig a big hole in my yard and bury it right and we had toremind people that you can’t just bury the trash that got dumped even if you have a great big farmso we worked through those details to come up with assessment tools when you have youknow hundreds of buildings damaged and businesses wanting to call back assoon as they get electricity they want to reopen their facility start searing foodagain we came up with some assessment tools to go to each restaurant the next day afterthe tornado we assembled a team to go out and evaluate the buildings and businessesin the especially around the mall to find out um did you lose electricityhow long was it off are you planning to operate is your building damaged uh buildingregulation came up with plans for assessing buildings with a label red orange yellow and greendetermining how badly damaged were your buildings and do you need to uh have a permit to fix the fixthe problem before you can go forward and then um we had um beaver creek city the health departmentour greene county environmental services which handles a lot of solid waste issues we issueda number of press releases to let people know where they can take their um yard trashand debris their trees they were cutting up and what to do with um things likeasbestos uh where to take that um we worked with the city um to figureout did we want to have a staging area for uh separating the debris we determined thebeaver sea beaver creek city determined that it would be best not to have a staging areasimply because um most of the area were damaged or were difficult to get to and it waseasy to work with the local companies garbage waste hauling companies to come up with aplan instead of having one large staging area uh the main problem that came up in thisin amongst the um solid waste debris was how to manage hundreds and thousands oftrees that were knocked down or destroyed it seems like as soon as it was daylight onthe day after memorial day all you could hear was chainsaws and the areas um you had trees thatwere um 40 50 feet tall three or four feet around and they were dragging the cutting up the treesand the brush and dragging it out to the road just to get it out of the yard off of their houseso um we realized that this is going to be a major response to solve the issue in order to keepaccess several of the subdivision areas were built in the 40s and 50s so you had on streetparking lanes that were narrow no sidewalks so there was limited place once you movedall your brush and debris out to the road i had no place to go or you had difficultytraveling so um beaver creek city had worked with the um a tree removal call company calledbunion and they specialize in disaster response so you had volunteers and neighbors andfriends coming in with chainsaws cutting up wood and trees the bunioncompany beaver creek hired them to work on removal of the process they havethese large trucks essentially a giant bin with a claw on the back that they can pick upany size tree and brush fill up their trucks and take them to we determined they werea spot where we could take all the debris for anyone to come we have the green countyenvironmental services on the west side of zinnia has a yard drop off yard trimming and brush dropoff site that operates on a regular basis most of the people know you can take your leaves there andyour brush and that and they have several acres of property so they were determined that we wouldthe bunion trucks would bring all of their wooden debris to the environmental services site and thetrucks are capable of of piling debris 40 50 60 feet high and so they could um start just pilingup the debris to get it out of the way and then we would eventually it would be would be turned intowood chips um but you can see the buildings there oh we’re ended up by the end of 2019 surrounded byum massive piles of debris the one that’s circled in red in the picture is 650 feet long roughly150 feet wide and approximately 50 or 60 feet high the other two piles are very are similar in sizebut um there was just massive amounts of wood that was taken away from beavercreekto be able to clear out the area and allow the other support services to getin and work um the pile that circled in red has approximately 182 thousand cubic yards ofmaterial that’s if you take a football field and you pile it 85 feet high that’s approximatelythe amount of raw material that was there it soon became obvious that the buniontrucks could go to environmental services but the other government agencies that werecollecting the debris they needed a separate place not so they would have to deal with the public andmix so they we found a new park um on the north north of beaver creek on the eastern side offairborn it was a large parking lot next to a park and the government agencies beaver creek city andtownship started bringing in their material to cemex park to help get get rid of that um the cleanup in the the properties onceelectricity was restored then we worked with the businesses to reopen the stores homes and that wewere once the initial debris and cleanup was taken care of the office of building regulation workedthrough the process of getting the homes rebuilt throughout the most of 2020 or theearly part of 2020 beaver creek city and environmental services worked togetherto find a way to chip up all of the um uh wood debris um this is a picture of uh the woodchipper that’s a full side full-size bulldozer next to it uh they used a direct feed grinderinstead of a tub grinder because a lot of the trees were too big for a tub grinder they turnedthe the debris was loaded into the the grinder um it could take basically anything that you wouldput on the conveyor belt it would turn into mulch uh 40 inch trees or larger you know they didn’tno one had to cut it up and trim it up you just fed it into the grinder and it turned itinto wood chips and mulch and then those were loaded into semi-trailers and the mulchwood chips were taken to two compost facilities that were relatively close the facilities hada land space to collect or to accept all of the wood chips and mulch and they have a processingthere where they sell it sell it as wood chips and mulch there was no intent to compost it so we hadto make sure that they were keeping it separate um from their composting areas that they sellbut they were able to take um all of the debris and surprisingly it took less than a month to clean up all of the the wooden debris atenvironmental services and the c-mex park site the recovery process is going to be extensiveuh one of the subdivision had high tension power lines that were ran through were runningthrough that subdivision uh 10 of the high tension power lines were were destroyed by thetornado so you have the the company came in and they set temporary poles for the hightension power lines that was quite a feat and then they were working to create um newpermanent poles but they take 12 to 18 months to build and install in fact they’ve they workedon replacing the first set of temporary poles about a month ago so roughly a year and a halfto get the permanent polls back into place um final thoughts um as we talked about today develop a debris or demand disaster managementplan um think it through understand the concepts and then ask for help whenever you have adisaster we we use other health departments to respond epa can answer questions um industrydid a good job the solid waste industry did a good job of coming in to help uh provide extratrash pickup roll off dumpsters if necessary listen to all of the inputs um that you have whenit’s time to make a decision and then use um the facts and knowledge and then keep good recordsof what your responses are to what happened this time so that when you come have this the next timeyou have something something to go back on because there will be a next time so if you have anyquestions uh thanks for having me and um very good mark thank you so much we reallyappreciate it that was a great presentation um we did have a couple of questions thatcame through for you okay one was could you expand on why you had to separate thematerial from what is the from what was sold the we didn’t have to um at the at the zeniaconstruction and demolition debris landfill he is quite active in recycling metal uh oneit’s a way for him to make money off the metal it’s also a way to keep um metaldebris that doesn’t have to that that could go into the landfill butdoesn’t have to so he will um if his guys are are able they’re able to separate ituh we sent out a press releases reminding people um to not just put everything out for trash ifyou don’t have to um it’s cheaper to take the wood and the debris to the drop-off sites and nottry to just put it out with the normal garbage so it’s easier to separate what can go tolandfills what can go to demolition debris what can be recycled that’s a way to help peoplesave money and also save resources in the future awesome thank you and then just one last quickquestion i know we’re just about time here with everything that occurred over the past year haveyou had to adjust your disaster debris management plan um yeah one of the things that we had toconsider was um the the one of the trash companies has a transfer station um that it closes and opensat different times of the year and so one of the fines was to find out is is the transportationor how easy is it to reopen the transfer station if you can so that we can um move stuffmore efficiently um the it depends on who’s in charge of the transportation totransfer station to know if they can um open it up or if it’s closed then um greene countydoesn’t have a solid waste landfill so all of the solid waste has to be transported out of out ofthe county so one of the things is to consider um how to avoid the having to send so much tothe landfill if it can go to cndd by by sorting perfect thank you well i did not receiveany additional questions through chat or through email but again thank you so much foryour presentation today we really appreciate it and we really appreciate yourtime thank you okay thank you so with that being said everyone we are uh at time so thank you all for stickingaround today we really appreciate your attendance and just being able to participatethroughout today’s event um again i just wanted to say thank you to our case study panel ofspeakers today so michelle mark and pam thank you so much for sharing your experiences we reallyappreciate your time and effort so thank you and then um i also wanted to thank our disasterdebris management workshop planning team so this involved brock metzger and phil clayton fromohio a john munir from montgomery county solid waste management district uh rick karlovsky chetcheney and jeff monovin from ohio epa so thank you to everyone who helped plan this event i think itwas a really good success in addition i just want to thank our partner associations for sending outall of our information and promoting this event it was we definitely could not have done it withoutyou so the ohio emergency management association organization of solid waste districts of ohioohio environmental health association county engineers association of ohio and americanpublic works association the ohio chapter so again thank you to all involved i thought itwas a really great presentation and workshop today we really appreciate it just a coupleof quick reminders before we let you all go again this workshop was awarded five rs credithours so if you have not had a chance yet i’m sending over the link again for the afternoonsurvey if you could please fill that out we are basing attendance on that so the morningand afternoon surveys we will be basing that for the rs credits but thenalso your certificate of completion we will be emailing out your certificates ofcompletion along with a recording of today’s workshop and then also the powerpoints and anysupplemental information so you’ll be getting that through email again i just want to saythank you to everyone who attended today we truly appreciate your participation so thankyou and hope you have a great day bye everyone

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Identifying, Testing and Managing the Risks of Asbestos in New Zealand

Hi I’m Freddy Kruger. I’m the Asbestos Team Leader at Prendos and I’m also a WorkSafe certified Asbestos assessor. I want to talk to you today about Asbestos and linking the risks and managing the risks thereof. Firstly let’s talk about what Asbestos is. It’s a natural fibrous cliff structuring minerals and used in the past for its fortitude and its insulating properties. Beings believe that it cannot burn, it’s waterproof … everything … the majority of members of it’s true. Problem is when it does burn it heats up inside and explodes, and in it spreads impurity over a wide area. Too the three most common types of Asbestos are all found in New Zealand and they would be Crocidolite which is the blue Asbestos, most dangerous. Amosite, brown Asbestos … sort of in the middle, and the Chrysotile which is most commonly found in building products, like the stuff they turn in walls, ceilings … if it’s that kind of thing. Let’s look at what the existing legislation says about Asbestos.It says the purposes of the act homes its own responsibilities on the PCBU and everyone by now should know what a PCBU is. It’s a person conducting a business or undertaking in all workplaces and that includes firms, business owners, class, form corporates, landowners … yes, that’s you … it is not include volunteer services because they don’t make money but everyone else does. That’s why religions and academies are also included. They must do the following points … they must produce, retain and update an Asbestos register for the workplace. They must prepare an Asbestos management plan and they must provide access to the Asbestos register, to anyone that may come into contact with Asbestos on the premises.The safety indebtedness for the purpose of determining Asbestos … so the PCBU, as discussed previously with control or dominate over the workplace, have a duty to know, or link, the health risks of show to respirable Asbestos fabrics. As far as reasonably practicable, ensure that all Asbestos is identified, frequently through an Asbestos survey. There may be inaccessible areas where they may have to assume that Asbestos is present. When you get tradies on site and those are normally your plumbers, electricians and those various kinds of guys … they have certain responsibilities, on a site. They have to ask to see the Asbestos register and the Asbestos management plan to know what they’re going to be working with. They must ask to see the luck register to know if there’s any other fortunes on site that they are not aware of. They must predict the hazard and Asbestos registers, and understand exactly where all the hazards are.They’re not allowed to go where it’s unsafe to do so unless they’ve got the proper training and gear with them. They are not allowed to disturb suspected Asbestos containing materials unless it’s sworn safe by an Asbestos survey. Lastly, they’re not allowed to walk on super six roofs. Those are the wavy roofs made from Asbestos, precisely, because it’s unsafe, it’s old and brittle. The normal lifespan of an Asbestos roof should be between 50 and 60 years. Most of them have far outdone their usable lifespan in New Zealand previously, so that’s why they are old and fragile. Why should we know about Asbestos? The state appearance of it is that there are 170 workers dying in New Zealand every year, directly attributable to Asbestos and … It doesn’t matter what kind of sickness they get, the most common would be Asbestosis, that everyone would know about but the cancers are even worse mesothelioma and you’ll … it’s … it’s a dire of extinction so you don’t want to contract any of those. The regulations state that it is part of the health and safety at work( Asbestos Act of 2016) and we have to adhere to it, whether we like it or not and you cannot contract out of it. You cannot be removed from it, you have to do it. The penalties is not negligible. For each breach of the law … $50,000 penalize to the PCBU and $10,000 to the individual, and you cannot insure against that.Where time you find Asbestos? It’s in the plaster on the walls, it’s fire retardant factors, flooring and wall vinyls .. you know these old-time vinyls from the seventies … the delightful chocolate-brown ones. When you peel them and there’s a paper backing, or a white approval, that’s usually 100% Chrysotile Asbestos. Insulation and pipe leggings … very dangerous trash. They used to use it in the older constructs, especially fire station, schools, public situates … Where they had a boiler room and the irrigate to be running tubes to heat the registers on each flooring, and those pipes were covered in Asbestos lagging. It was unadulterated Asbestos, typically Amosite … very dangerous. In foundations and fencing, sprinkle sea paraphernalium, loadings of it specially older buildings, bigger structures. They have big sewers, some internal, some external … you’ll hear them, all Asbestos. Plant and equipment … I would say that gaskets are a big one but too brake pads on elevations engines in your house … obviously Asbestos.In the soil, illegal dump or even previous parties that broke down the building … didn’t clean it up properly and contaminated the grunge. Oven door shuts, you know that white rope, in hearth mends as well, also contains Asbestos. The older waver electrical wire, especially on staves and kettles, contains Asbestos. The plaster sheathing for soffits, the walls, ceilings, ceiling tiles, peculiarly the ones to those used little opens taught in their own homes. Not the uniform excavations that are smaller and bigger … of a certain area … they all contain Asbestos. Gaskets and shuts, Bituminous concoctions, for waterproofing on ceilings. Very common, all over the place. Electrical switch committees, the backboards. Generally there would even be a name on it which would be Asbestos or one of those refers that you know it cannot be anything else. It’s usually pitch-black. If your backboard of your electrical switchboard is black, it’s usually Asbestos, and then the roofing that you get anyway it’s called super six and it’s absolutely everywhere, especially on big commercial buildings.Now there were some unique situates that you could find Asbestos as well. It used to be used in wine to clarify the finish … whatever that intends. It used to be used in beer as a filter. Blue Asbestos used to be, and that’s a dangerous one, used to be used as a filtering component in gas disguises in both World War one and World War two. Nowadays, I’m not gonna say Johnson& Johnson, but talcum powder contains Asbestos because that’s what they’re made of. I don’t know if you’ve ever trimmed an electric cable and there’s talcum powder in the cable. That also contains Asbestos … retrace extents but it’s still there. Modern crayons and modeling clay, brought in from China … they don’t have the same bans as anywhere else. Christmas medallions … the phony blizzard … don’t get much of it nowadays but if you; re probing your grandmother’s attic and you find a box of imitation snowfall, just know it’s unadulterated Asbestos. Jewelry-making equipment … Not much of it around but still there could be. Toothpaste … fabulous but there used to be a brand called Aparna and that contained Asbestos. It’s inside bowling balls. Blue Asbestos was also very widely used as cigarette filters … so just to compound the problems … and companies are still compensating suits specially Kent. Dental crowns, until the’ 80 s, used to contain Asbestos as well. In light bulbs. Those big round mane dryers that you’re getting in lounges, they contain Asbestos as well, and glue for floor tiles. So it’s not only the vinyl that’s on the floor but the adhesive that persists it to the floor contains Asbestos. Some consumers might not be a way of their responsibilities to have Asbestos management schemes and cross-files. It had to be in place by the fourth of April, 2018. After a two-year grace period, it was supposed to be done by 2016, but it is now surely in the Statute. Prendos New Zealand can offer you the following points. We do Asbestos Management or refurbishment/ defeat the investigations and the preparation of the Asbestos Management Plans to accompany those.Third gathering monitoring and clearances for when Asbestos needs to be removed. It to be necessary … the authorization and the third party monitoring , not by the removalists, but by independent third party, which we could be the third party and they all have to be done by a licensed Asbestos Assessor. Now there is two different kinds of surveys. One is called a Presumptive Survey and one is called a Management Survey. The Presumptive Survey says that everything in your neighbourhood … you can assume to be containing Asbestos. The trouble with that is any work ever done on the building you will need to have the material measured before you can work on that building.Yes, you may have a Management Plan and it says assumed to be Asbestos, everything, but you will never be able to work on the building, in different aspects, until you actually know what it contains. so the PCBUs, opts for presumptive investigations defer the problem until emergency situations develops. It will cost more for any work to be done on a construct, such as … say electrician comes in and he needs to drill a fault in the ceiling then you have to actually test the ceiling to make sure that it doesn’t contain Asbestos, before he’s even allowed to go in … and the building still has to be re-inspected at least every five years, according to the legislation, until the Asbestos is removed or deteriorated in such a manner that it has to be removed. Thank you for taking the time to watch this video.If you have any questions please throw them in a comment box below and the authorities concerned will do our best to answer it as soon as possible. Thank you.

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Concrete Jungle: Conserving Canada’s Menagerie of Concrete Sculptures

Concrete Jungle: Conserving Canadas Menagerieof Concrete Sculptures Speaker 1: Thank you, Mary. And thank you to the NCPTT for inviting aNorthern neighbor, even though I am from the US. But, talking about a Canadian context in termsof roadside structure and pulls. So, for my presentation … Great. Talking about the Concrete jungle, conservingCanada’s menagerie of concrete carves. These are some recent projections, in 2017, anda current programme, for this year, that CSI and Ottawa’s office had participated in. Of working with district and universitiesfor the conservation of these sort of beloved sections that have become sort of the intrinsicvalue of local communities. So the three main projects that I’m goingto be talking about are the Centre Street Bride Lions, which are located in Calgary, Alberta, the Maurice Savoie Mural, which is located at Memorial University in St.John’s, Newfoundland, and Dinny the Dinosaur, likewise located in Calgary, Alberta at the CalgaryZoo. You can see here, that’s a patrimony postcardfrom the 1950 s of Downtown Calgary. The Centre Street Bridge is one of the mainroads. It’s a grid arrangement, so it’s the main road. Rather than a main street, they have CentreStreet. And the lions are actually four lions thatwere is available on kiosks through the pedestrian walkways resulting into and out of the city. And then, as we found out yesterday, everyoneloves dinosaurs. An sample of Dinny the Dinosaur from theCalgary Zoo. Who was, and still is, a beloved peculiarity ofthe zoo. Not time the live animals.And was quickly used as advertising and adestination smudge. This is actually … My coworker and coauthorSophia, this is actually her grandparents at their honeymoon, who traveled to go seeDinny as part of their trip. So simply a little context. I will acknowledge, I’ve been in Canada about fiveyears now, and my geography of Canada was lacking. So, the main projects, one of the biggestfactors patently in Canada is weather. It’s the Great White North, and it is true. Most parties joke, and I’m sure anyone fromnorthern territory. There’s two seasons in Canada, it’s winterand construction. So that does too restriction the conservation opportunitiesfor a lot of these outdoor artworks because your working times are limited, especiallyif you’re doing large scale jobs like these, as well as the type of materials thatyou can use because freeze-thaw, and time sheer freezing is such a problem.So, St. John’s, the whole way far far eastern inthe Maritimes. And, Calgary out west in a Western Prairies. The forecast itself, both are highly windy. But the Calgary has a unique sort of featurereferred to as the Chinook. Right next to the Rockies, it actually, inthe winter, you get high-pitched switches. So you get this weird … It will be negative3 0 degrees for two weeks, and then it are likely to be plus 50 for two weeks after. So you get these fairly drastic switches thatfacilitate further problems linked to any outdoor structures.Compared to the Newfoundland Maritime climate, where it is highly windy, most sunny, snowfall always, and this can all happen in changesof fifteen minutes within one day throughout the year. So, because these parts, which many of theones that have been spoken about with discussion, are identified as either public art or roadsideart, whether it’s privately owned or publicly held, there’s always this kind of balancebetween the conservator or the researcher, the public, because they’re the ones you’represerving this hopefully for, and likewise the customer. As we work in a private manufacture, there’salways this balance between what are your contractual obligations versus what advocacyshould you be promoting to the public for the portions that you’re working on.And then likewise, the public opinion to the client. We found a lot of the specimen, especiallyin Calgary, there was recently an election cycle. And an official misspoke about one of thepublic art slice motiving a very large controversy. Just because they territory something mistaken. Referencing one of the native communities. And as a result, there was a complete moratoriumon any public artwork. We were able to continue because we had anexisting contract, luckily with the lions, but we weren’t allowed to speak about it, we weren’t allowed to do any PR, any discussion with the public, anything because it was prettymuch a big no-no because then the public said, “Well, why are we spend money on thingsif we can’t agree with it? ” So it’s this constant balance.But always, hopefully, the object at the centerof it. So exactly kind of expanding on that. A batch of the preservation destinations with theseoutdoor sculptures and roadside lures is always you have your standards of what you’reworking towards of wanting to do everything from historic study, and coming allof your colour analysis done, doing textile identification, and historic research andphotographs. And many times, like I said, your timelinesare very short. The contracts don’t cover that kind of information. So, these projects really focused on justgetting the work done. Because, for the most part, the issue is, whilepublicly enjoyed, very forgotten fragments. And it wasn’t until they became health andsafety hazards that the city and universities decided to do something about it. So, “its one of” the Calgary Lions. So, as I said, it’s one of four. So, this connect itself was building in 1916. And, designed by one of the architects thatwas a member of the city council.And the lions are designed after the lionsat Trafalgar Square in London. “Its time” when Canada is still a Britishentity, so this is always the connection there. And, the lions themselves are thirteen tons. Quite massive. And were created in five separate parts. So they were cast around a enclosure of internalrebar, and then set in regions, as you can see here, on top of the connection. And then you kind of, these little kiosks, you can walk through and under. After that moment when they were installed, then the government has local sculptors are now in and apply kind of like a awning coat to add inadditional details for the mane and the faces.To kind of give a little bit more dimensionto the lions. And the idea was then sort of protect thebase concrete that was sort of still the same kind of concrete that was used as part ofthe bridge. So these “mustve been” structurally integral, as they kind of … Several feet up in the air and hanging over passersby. So, unfortunately, there was very little thatwas done for these objects over their countless years in Calgary in the extreme weather. So, in the late 80 s, it was decided one, theywere increasing the connection. And two, they realized that there was workthat needed to be done. So some safaruss … Regrettably thereare no records of what was done. Acrylic coatings were applied to the concrete, likely because they were spalling, and really general impairment over term. These finishings have had an adverse effectto the lions. So, after ten years of that, they did anotherround of creation on the aqueduct. And the decision was made to actually removethem in 1999 “because theres” bits falling off, they were found not to be structurallystable.But because of the link with the community, and the government has such a vicinity, they ousted the lions with brand-new throws. But the city saw this as an opportunity topreserve the existing ones. And it became absorbed in part of the publicart program that is sort of widespread throughout Calgary. So you can see here, basically four of thelions were all taken off. Sent to, kind of, lion graveyard on the topof a mound. And, three of them had been sitting theresince 1999. They did decide to preserve one of them andput it in front of city hall as kind of an crest of the sort of connection street itselfand the city hall, which is one block over. What they intention up doing with the cares, as you can see here, the amount of cracking that is throughout the structures, especiallyalong the seam courses. There was no … While there is an internalrebar, “were not receiving” structural ties between all the different pieces. So, as the rebar, which they found to be almostone hundred percent corroded and nonexistent, through ground-penetrating radar and radiographysampling, there was not much impounding it together outside of time the cohesion of the concretemix.When they removed them, they did have to takepart of the bridge with it. So you can see in the photos on the right, these kinds of stepped area with the core loopholes is where they drilled through it toremove it from the connection. And then positioned HSS steel framing to supportit and allow for transport. So, in 2017, and sort of the centennial ofthe creation of the connect, the city decided that they were going to preserve the secondlion. But take a different approach with it. It was going to be displayed in a public parkoverlooking the connection. To kind of have this connection between theoriginal and the aged, and the permutations and the originals, as well. However, the decision by the city officialswas they wanted it to be conserved as a spoil. Whereas the one in city hall was more a restorationapproach. They wanted to illustrate the life of thelions. So they demanded the crannies to be seen, theywanted all the bumps and traumata, sort of warts and all approach.So, as part of our assessments, we took thatinto consideration in select our medication programmes. So our second case study was the Maurice SavoieMural, which is a large scale mural on the two sides of Memorial University. It’s twelve large scale decorative panelsthat is a combination of cementitious mortar on a concrete approval that is structurallyhung on the side of the building. It dates to 1966. And Maurice Savoie was a famed Qubcoisceramicist. So, while there’s a lot of research abouthis ceramic office, if anyone’s been to Montreal, he did a lot of the murals in the Montrealtube station … Or, subway stations. But regrettably, for whatever reason, thereis no record of him ever use a cementitious or concrete medium. There are no records of why on earth thisthing ended up in Newfoundland. The university has very little records. But, basically, it was put up there in 1966 and it’s not been touched since. So as you can see, there is a lot of largescale loss as a result of the corroding rebar. Popping pieces off and, recently, some pieceshad sort of fallen into the walkways underneath at the university. So it was saw a state and safety hazard. So one of the other issues that the clienthad to decide was the building needed a full restoration. It’s got a lot of leaking windows, it’s gota leaking roof.But what do you prolong? The abide building or the artwork? And it came down to the health and safetyneeds, that they actually cured the artwork over the building. So a lot of the conditions, very typical ofconcrete and cementitious cloths. Disclosed and expanding rebar. With this mural solely you can see onthe far right, the two separate seams, the outer slouse of the cementitious mortar, that would otherwise have been stirred in a mildew, they would have pulped it into the mold. He computed additional aggregates and pigments, kind of, to get these influences and fleshes. And then, the concrete backing, which hassort of a large mix aggregate, would have been spewed on top of that with a coating ofembedded reinforcing sword in between. Nonetheless, probably when constructing it, the rebarsunk. So in instances, the rebar is actually protrudingthrough the surface, or within a one-fourth to a sixteenth of an inch from the face. So, that’s motived some serious problems. And likewise, all of the caulking had disappointed. It likely had been replaced at some phase, but, like I said, there were no records existing.So one of the big-hearted things that we looked atis doing full state analysis to understand the extent of the damage and find all of theloss and all of the voids. Whether it was a visual loss, or there werevoids behind the surface. So we were able to address these problems. But one of the biggest factors was addressingthe biological emergence. The climate in Newfoundland, as I said, it’svery mute. And temperatures vary throughout the year. So it was sort of a perfect climate, and perfectsurface for this type of problem.So as a result, there was very extensive biologicalgrowth over the part mural, fogging a lot of the details, which is sort of a wetlandscene of crane-like fledglings, reeds, flowers. Normal of sort of like the marshlands, we’reassuming, that he might have drawn from of the nearby environment. The other aspects that he utilized, he did embeddedpebbles, mashed pebbles and actually slate and terracotta into the mural. So it actually spreads out from it to giveit more depth and dimension. And then exerted a secondary, highly pigmented, mortar, sort of like splatter draw with light commons and radiant crimson throughout themural.But unfortunately, the biological increment hadsort of leeched onto that. So trying to find the solution of, “Do youget rid of the paint? ” Or, “Do you get rid of the bio proliferation? ” So through our employ, we did a lot of colormatching and mortar samples so we could find a equivalent pair for the exertion. Sourcing local beach, sourcing neighbourhood stonesfor the substitutions prior to us starting all of our make. So, the most exciting of it is the dinosaur. So, Dinny the dinosaur, same to the onesthat were talked about yesterday, it is from the 1930 s. It’s a large scale concrete fossil locatedat the Calgary Zoo. It was actually one of 56 created by a localartist for this sort of archaic ballpark. Same to the Midwest in the US, dinosaurand petroleum is what Alberta is known for. So this was a very big neighbourhood fascination forCalgary.Unfortunately, in the 80 s, and through thetime period, most of the collection of 56 dinosaurs were either removed or demolished. And the only original still standing at thezoo is Dinny. However, there is a new ancient park separatefrom Dinny. That is fiberglass fossils that has sortof virtual walkthroughs “for childrens”, and radicals. So there’s a little of a disassociationthat Dinny, regrettably, is now sitting alone by himself tucked away. And then also with … There’s been a lotof restoration with the zoo. Principally because pandas are coming from China. Which spurns the need to do something withDinny. There has been a lot of … Similar to theconcrete, there’s been cracking, there’s been peeling of the paint that has resulted inhealth and safety concerns. So they’ve had to block up the area.The other facet is he’s now blocked off bya brand-new road that was added in to the zoo for better parking and access. So it used to be that you could … Sort ofthis scenery that he would sort of appear out of nowhere as you turn a angle. But now, he’s sort of blocked off, the roadactually prohibiting access. Sort of opposite of everything else. And, we do know he’s been painted multipletimes over the years. But outside of regular maintenance of generalwashing from the zoo personnel, little has been done. He’s also unearthed directly next to an animalpen. So there’s that extra bed of now there’sbits falling off. So it’s not only just a jeopardy to beings, it’s a jeopardy to the swine. And there’s the probability, which we’ll bedoing analysis to confirm, if there is lead paint. Also, if there’s asbestos. Asbestos was used widely in anything and everythingin Canada.It was excavated there, and a lot of timesit was actually mixed with plaster to make it more ductile and provide a little bit morestability. So, we’ll be is proved that. And then estimating how do we are genuinely treatit “if youre having” that amount of hazardous materials on a piece that’s that big-hearted next to swine. So, we likewise carried out the medicines onthe lion following our sort of review with the city to evaluate how do you preserve thisas a ruin, but knowing that it’s going back to an outdoor environment. That it’s going to be descended on. It’s going to be likely vandalized. It’s going to be in a public ballpark that’s notregularly monitored, conventional of any type of outdoor public artistry, roadside entertainments, there’s only so much you can control.So, what we ended up doing is focusing onthe structural repairs as well as restores to crackings, vacants, losses to prevent furtherwater infiltration into the monument. So we looked at the different sections knowingthat some repair work had been done when it was removed. Gigantic steel staples were added into theneck to secure the principal. But no undertaking was done to the sort of skirtplinth that was underneath it, which was actually in several different sections. So it’s likely that the lion itself, whileit was cast in five bits, this sort of plinth around it was then supplemented based on the dimensionsof the kiosk that it seat on. So as a result, all the lions are just a littleoff. It’s not actually square and plumb, whichyou would think something that’s engineered for a bridge would be.But, it wasn’t. So we are genuinely did formation reinforcementwith Cintec anchors to tie those articles together. And, the extremely fragile and corroded rebarthat was in the portion of the connection was actually all realise cut and removed. And it’s going to be reincorporated into thenew design of the new presentation sort of platform that is being designed for it. Then we likewise did extended cracking amends. Some of which were actually through crannies. Work that had been done … The client hadhired an creator to restore the artworks who had done the restoration for the other lion. And while it’s great that they hired someoneto do the direct, unfortunately, that person didn’t have a full understanding of the bestoptions. So a lot of the sound mends is simply fillingthe surface. And, once those were removed, we realizedthat some of these crannies were actually half a paw deep.So we applied liquid repellent coatings andmineral pigmented veneers by KEIM to allow breath ability of the surface as well as providinga protective membrane and a kind of somewhat regalium coloring. As I said, the customer demanded it conservedas a ruin, so they didn’t want an opaque face, or a painted search face. So they wanted it to look a hundred yearsold. So we sort of worked with him to find a happymedium of enough armour versus what aesthetic they were going for. For the cleansing, for removal of the acryliccoating, we pointed up doing CO2 cleaning. Because the abrasive techniques we knew wouldbe a little too much based on what they had done with the previous lion. So as I mentioned with the Maurice Savoie Mural, the bio emergence was the largest thing of time scavenging it was the biggest thing. So you can see on the left, the bio increment, and then on the right, after cleanse. We also did same restores of cracks andrepairs to walls. As I indicated, the disclosed rebar was causingareas to spall off. Which asked removal. So where disclosed rebar was perceptible, it waseither cleansed or cut off and coated. And then new repairs shade paired and amended. As you can see on the bottom right, therewere several glowing fixtures that had been drilled into the piece over the years, resultingin innumerable pits, plastic pushes, kind of a little bit of utilitarian approach to electricalwork.So as a result, we sort of had to faux finishit, in essence, to get to the seam arguments and everything to disappear as much as possible. And then did a same approaching of applyinga water repellent and corrosion inhibitors to prevent future deterioration. Really focusing with the client that maintenancefor these slice was going to be a huge aspect. So, our work with Dinny has not started more. But, hopefully, the biggest factor as I said, is going to be the health and safety. Evaluating how do we safely remove, if thereis lead paint. And remove all the failed materials whilesafely , not just for the workers, but for the swine and the public. As there will be a gigantically massive influxof people to the area. So you can see, there is a large hole thatwas cut into the center of him. In 2008, the structural designers came inand did revaluations to made to ensure that he wasn’t going to completely collapse on the public’shead.And found that structural reinforcements arerequired in his neck. There’s no internal corroborates, “its just” theactual really frame that’s there. There was, luckily, with the trimming the holeand examination in 2008, removed a longstanding possibility that there was a Model T inside ofhim. Where that came from, it’s unknown, seeingthat he was formed in the 1930 s. But unsure. But there’s not one in there. It wouldn’t fit anyway. So as I memorandum, like one of the most difficult things. While the treatment programs were a definiterequirement to fix the health and safety concerns as well as get these to a stable state thatthey can be returned to their former beauty and displayed and enjoyed by the public, isreally ensuring that maintenance and monitoring programs are part of the therapy curriculum. And ensuring that not only that there’s awarenessfor that with the public, but illustrating to the client and the public that you’ve gotto set aside coin for that.This is if you want to keep this stuff, youhave to keep working on it. Which I’m sure all of you deal with on a dailybasis. So one of the things, the lion is actually, while it was unfortunately supposed to be removed last year, due to the sort of controversy, undertaking was delayed, and it is now being installed this summer. Fingers traversed. To its brand-new point. An speciman of the brand-new sort of concrete structurethat it’s going to be put on and sort of watching over the new lions. Same with the mural. One of the large-hearted influences was because the failedcaulking had allowed a lot of water to get into between the different committees, and sortof merely sucking it into that mural, and exactly the rebar was just most rusting. So, try to enforce that even though accessto a lot of these large scale patches will be difficult, and age ingesting, and costly, that this regular monitoring will reduce large scale troubles down the road.In the hopes that fix a little bit now, soyou don’t have to fix everything or gamble full raze and defeat later down the road. So with Dinny, we’ll see how it goes. As I said, they have been washing some ofthe other fossils in the park. So we hope that they will be able to do sometype of maintenance with Dinny down the road. But, because there is that sort of intrinsiccommunity aspect with Dinny of this love for him, as all children love dinosaurs. Of, do you let beings climb on it? Do you not? I imply hopefully, formerly contribute paint’s removed, it can be. Don’t chew the decorate. But it’s also the idea that now that he’scompletely separated from his original situation, and all the other dinosaurs are elsewherein the park, how do you fit that in the narrative of is he still advertisement for the zoo? Or is he merely, “Oh, that thing that sits overthere.” So that’s what we’re sort of hoping with the…Working with the zoo, doing advocacy, and maybe public resources in terms ofcrowdfunding to have a little bit more of a revitalized safarus and brand-new compassion for the newgeneration for Dinny. So yes, so , thank you very much. Speaker 2: And do “were having” our first questionfor Kelly? Speaker 1: I have dropitis today. Speaker 2: Well I have a question for you. Speaker 1: Sure. Speaker 2: I actually have two questions foryou. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 2: The first one is, did you use anytype of biocidal cleaner when you removed biological growth? Speaker 1: We did. We employed D2. Speaker 2: D2? Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And the second question I havefor you, is can you tell me a little more about your CO2 cleaning? Speaker 1: Sure. So CO2 is basically abusing dry ice in tinylittle pellets that is attached to a massive air compressor. Luckily for the lion, the city provided aspace for this to be worked on. And it was sort of like a large warehouse, garage infinite. So pretty much, specific actions of the CO2 is itshock freezes the membrane, and through thermal swelling, then kind of explosions it off thesurface. Aside from the detrimental effects of the abrasivecleaning that was previously used on the other lion, the CO2, you have a lot less to almostno residual cleanup.Because it’s sort of , not like a laser whereit vaporizes it off the surface, but it roughly does. So it was a lot sort of safer and more manageabletreatment for cleaning. Speaker 2: Right. And that induces me to the last question. Did you try any laser emptying measures? Speaker 1: We didn’t try laser emptying. While we do do laser cleansing, the optionsfor it … Everything was beige. So the absorption proportions for the laser varybecause of the … Well, I don’t want to get super technical, but mostly it’s not darkenough that laser would have worked. Speaker 2: Right. You had needed differ in this original surfaceto the coating. Speaker 1: Precisely, yeah. The acrylic varnish was a weird cream color? That ointment grey-haired. But there was also … The veneer wasn’tuniform, there were random blobs of epoxy that had been dripped on it. There was age-old core gaps that had been filledwith we didn’t know what. There was a very sundry record ofthese once they came here off the aqueduct in’ 99. The other two are still sitting in that sortof lion outdoor statue graveyard that the city owns.One was used as a guinea pig to sort of doall the testing on one, and then the one that was in best mode went to city hall. The one that we worked on was sort of thenext one, and then there’s the third one, and the guinea pig that are … What do youdo? So. Speaker 2: Thank you. Speaker 1: Thanks. Speaker 2: Other questions? Thank you, Kelly ..

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